Ghost vs. Clyde 28 - answering the break - wwyd

onepockethacker

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Bill,

To answer your question, It doesn't. If the cue ball were further from the side rail I would be more in favor of it, but I see this shot as in need of excellent control of both speed and direction, and unless some right english is used, which I don't advocate, some power must be applied because of the fairly full hit.

Hit this shot too hard or too soft, and a sell out of a good bank on the four will result. With so many loose balls around my opponent's pocket, don't want to encourage him to take even an off angle bank at that four ball.

My choice would then be to either kick at the four ball or take a foul lagging the cue toward the thirteen and two balls. From there I should be in a better position to help my cause because the foot rail will become a safe haven for me until I can do something to equalize the table somewhat.

Tom
I don't think you are going to want to take a foul lagging up to the 2 or 13 balls.. soft kicking the 4 ball is ok I guess.

have a nice day
 

Kybanks

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Which after all these suggestions we come back to the right shot. 2 railing the 10 into the 4 and sending the cue ball back and forth where Ghost put it with his intentional.. The 14 carom off the 5 obviously didn't look good because Ghosts opponent can see it with his intentional so Ghost wasn't worried about him shooting it.. 1 shot you change the entire game around..

have a nice day:)
How hard are you going to have to hit this? The angle looks a little flat to accomplish position on the cue ball.
 

wincardona

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Billy if you can't execute the 2 rail on the 10 hang up your cue... You say this is so difficult, then last night you say you have never in 50 years of playing seen the 2 railer on the 5.. you are sounding like Lou

P.S. I will film this result also

have a nice day:)
Maybe you've improved, if so you're a candidate for the next "Make It Happen" one pocket invitational. Waiting for the film results.:)

Dr. Bill
 

LSJohn

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Lets discuss what you would do if the angle on the 10ball wasn't available to choose Keoneyo's and your 10ball option, then what?:confused: Now does the 1ball option look more appealing to you?

Dr. Bill
I think coming off the 1 I would risk the possible downsides of sending the CB into the 14 [Yikes, I said into 5] rather than the difficult touch downside of trying to get to the bottom rail. I might leave a bank on the 4 or 5, but I think there's a pretty good chance that the 5 blocks the 4 bank or they both gets safe.

I like Keoneyo's 10 into the 7 but not 10 into the 14 because of 5 into CB. I think there may not be room to get it into the 7.
 
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Kybanks

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Yes, If you're going to take an intentional this is the intentional to take imo. It's a little tricky but it accomplishes quite a bit. By positioning the cue ball on the 14ball you you will move the 14ball off the dangerous carom angle and force your opponent to play his return shot off either the 1ball or 15ball. Which ever ball he uses for his return shot will leave you in a better defensive position then the one you originally shot from. That to me is grinding out of a threatening position. If your opponent comes off the 1ball then you could possibly counter with either coming back off the 1ball or kicking into the 15ball. If your opponent comes off the 15ball then you figure to have a return kick into the 15ball. My point is that taking the intentional by floating to the 14ball will lend to a more complicated situation for your opponent to negotiate, not bad considering your options. How did they say it...Rome wasn't built in a day.:D

Dr. Bill
I've looked at this situation for a solid day and taking a foul here is the right shot for me, because I can control the options my opponent has and whatever he chooses to shoot I should be in a better spot to turn this good break around.
 

wincardona

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Bill,

To answer your question, It doesn't. If the cue ball were further from the side rail I would be more in favor of it, but I see this shot as in need of excellent control of both speed and direction, and unless some right english is used, which I don't advocate, some power must be applied because of the fairly full hit.

Hit this shot too hard or too soft, and a sell out of a good bank on the four will result. With so many loose balls around my opponent's pocket, don't want to encourage him to take even an off angle bank at that four ball.

My choice would then be to either kick at the four ball or take a foul lagging the cue toward the thirteen and two balls. From there I should be in a better position to help my cause because the foot rail will become a safe haven for me until I can do something to equalize the table somewhat.

Tom
Lets look at it this way Tom. Hacker and Jeff likes the 10ball two rails into the 4ball and send the cue ball twice cross table shooting into a a target area the size of a balls width with a flat angle. Then Stroud and Dan like playing the carom on the 2ball that hasn't even been discussed as an option until now. Why can't Frank and I drop to the bottom rail off the 1ball, that option in comparison to all the other options that have been discussed looks very doable, don't you think?

Taking an intentional is certainly an option from this position. I like taking the intentional kicking into the 14ball or like you say toward the 4ball. Be careful when kicking toward the 4ball you could leave the 5ball carom. I agree with Hacker not being a good choice on your intentional shooting into the 13ball, all one needs to do is shoot you back where you shot from to negate the value with that choice.

When taking intentional's it should be a consideration before taking one to determine if your opponent can take one back by rolling you to where you shot from. If he can, it just may not be the right choice. Of course that wasn't for you Tom, just a tid bit of info some players may like to know.

Dr. Bill
 

Jeff sparks

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Lets look at it this way Tom. Hacker and Jeff likes the 10ball two rails into the 4ball and send the cue ball twice cross table shooting into a a target area the size of a balls width with a flat angle. Then Stroud and Dan like playing the carom on the 2ball that hasn't even been discussed as an option until now. Why can't Frank and I drop to the bottom rail off the 1ball, that option in comparison to all the other options that have been discussed looks very doable, don't you think?

Taking an intentional is certainly an option from this position. I like taking the intentional kicking into the 14ball or like you say toward the 4ball. Be careful when kicking toward the 4ball you could leave the 5ball carom. I agree with Hacker not being a good choice on your intentional shooting into the 13ball, all one needs to do is shoot you back where you shot from to negate the value with that choice.

When taking intentional's it should be a consideration before taking one to determine if your opponent can take one back by rolling you to where you shot from. If he can, it just may not be the right choice. Of course that wasn't for you Tom, just a tid bit of info some players may like to know.

Dr. Bill
Dunno Bill,

Looks like I could drive an 18 wheeler through that gap, and the angle for the 10 looks very close to perfect for the 2 rail into the 4/3, also it's a very simple natural CB twice across with a tip of high left English. At least that's how I see it.
Hacker and Rod also agree, although Rod shows a draw off the 10, which I would not do.
 

Jimmy B

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We're playing a twilight double-header tonight...:)...

Gotta try and get y'all out of the flames...:heh...

Clyde just broke --- my shot --- my pocket is top right --- wwyd?


Was the fourteen a dead carom off of the five into his pocket? I can't tell. I know it's not frozen to the five, but it could still be like almost automatic...
 

straightback

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Lets look at it this way Tom. Hacker and Jeff likes the 10ball two rails into the 4ball and send the cue ball twice cross table shooting into a a target area the size of a balls width with a flat angle. Then Stroud and Dan like playing the carom on the 2ball that hasn't even been discussed as an option until now. Why can't Frank and I drop to the bottom rail off the 1ball, that option in comparison to all the other options that have been discussed looks very doable, don't you think?

Taking an intentional is certainly an option from this position. I like taking the intentional kicking into the 14ball or like you say toward the 4ball. Be careful when kicking toward the 4ball you could leave the 5ball carom. I agree with Hacker not being a good choice on your intentional shooting into the 13ball, all one needs to do is shoot you back where you shot from to negate the value with that choice.

When taking intentional's it should be a consideration before taking one to determine if your opponent can take one back by rolling you to where you shot from. If he can, it just may not be the right choice. Of course that wasn't for you Tom, just a tid bit of info some players may like to know.

Dr. Bill
Third time - the billiard ain't my shot. Just pointed out that is exists and could be considered if the circumstances were right.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Unfortunately, there's just not enough time in the day for the Ghost to not only record and post up these wwyd's, but then to have to correct and give reality checks to brother Rob, brother Billy, and now even brother Wayne as well!...:rolleyes:...:frus...

But because of my dedication to the students on here learning correctly :heh I'll make two last posts re. this particular situation...:cool:...


The only problem with that shot is the opponent could then take a return foul and roll up to the right side of the 13, they can come up several inches short or several inches long and the situation is still worse than the original situation with less options.
Where's the big problem? = if, he "rolls me up to the right side of the 13ball"...I just come off of the edge of the 2ball to get to the long rail, then down to the foot rail, and under the stack.


Ghost, your intentional isn't any good, you're asking for trouble sending the cue ball up table allowing your opponent to play off the 1ball and advance the 1ball and possibly the 15ball closer to his pocket and play a good cue ball <------That's what Clyde attempted to do, and wound up selling out to me :cool:


You say you can execute your shot 100% of the time..great..but your not accomplishing anything <-----Of course I am :rolleyes: I'm giving my opponent the chance to not choose the best shot, and/or, having to shoot from distance, and frozen on the rail, to not execute well - which is exactly what happened = Clyde shot at the 1ball, attempting to play it rail first and then the 15ball to pocket the 15 - while floating the cueball over towards the 7 & 8balls to snooker me - I'll tell in my next post how that turned out...



You also said that when I float to the 7 and 8ball off the 1ball I can very easily give up a cross corner..that's simply not going to happen you will be in a big hurt, look at the position from the angle from the 7 and 8ball there's pictures available. <----- :rolleyes: yet another malpractice suit being filed against you...go back and read my post again = it wasn't to your shot of floating towards the 7 and 8balls that I said that - it was in response to Frank's saying that my opponent could shoot to pocket the 15 rail first, that I said I could be left a cross-corner...:rolleyes:




Also like Wayne alluded to he can put you on the 13ball from there <-----See my response to Wayne


Dr. Bill
- Ghost - Reality is my life :cool:
 
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keoneyo

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[/B]

Sorry Keone, I missed seeing this until Dr. Bill pointed it out to me. As long as the five-fourteen is not on, this would be my choice. If the carom is on I would have to consider bumping the fourteen with the ten as it returns off the side rail. Anyway, I obviously like your shot.

Tom
No big Tom. My post usually go unnoticed because Im not calling some a dope for not seeing my shot nor reminding people that I am the greatest mover since Bekins. I pick the shot that fits my level of expertise. And that is like 90% of the gobs that play the game. In other words standard shots that work with a greater percentage of execution.
I do see the tougher advanced shots but myself would not be able to perform. I like to travel but I would go to Rome or London. I leave places like Borneo and the Upper Andes to the pros.

If the 10 is not available and cannot be seen properly I do like Ghosts choice for the mere fact it is easily accomplished and forces my opponent to think defensively instead of aggressivily.
If he is still in an aggressive mode and tries to shoot a rail first on the 15 or a carom shot then good cause he gives himself a chance to give up his equity if he messes up.

If he goes defensive and takes a scratch and now we are playing needing 9 a piece which is right where I want him to be on this break.. Im not playing Mr 8 and out here. We are now playing a moving game. My game.

Robs shot is respectable and one I will take as well. Opening up my side of the rack is the imperative. Trying the best way to put balls on my side of the table.

PS Playing safe under the stack for me is a nono as it can lead to me back into the stack on my side. Troublesville.
 
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Wayne

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Yes but I like the one rail soft kick towards the 8 and 13, taking a foul. Hopefully leaving my opponent in the stack.
This benefits the Ghost though in one way. We are now playing 9/9 and knowing the Ghost and his style (which is similar to my style) can use this to his advantage.

The longer the game goes the better mover is favored.
Good point. The one rail kick might be easier for most players.
 

Wayne

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Lets look at it this way Tom. Hacker and Jeff likes the 10ball two rails into the 4ball and send the cue ball twice cross table shooting into a a target area the size of a balls width with a flat angle. Then Stroud and Dan like playing the carom on the 2ball that hasn't even been discussed as an option until now. Why can't Frank and I drop to the bottom rail off the 1ball, that option in comparison to all the other options that have been discussed looks very doable, don't you think?

Taking an intentional is certainly an option from this position. I like taking the intentional kicking into the 14ball or like you say toward the 4ball. Be careful when kicking toward the 4ball you could leave the 5ball carom. I agree with Hacker not being a good choice on your intentional shooting into the 13ball, all one needs to do is shoot you back where you shot from to negate the value with that choice.

When taking intentional's it should be a consideration before taking one to determine if your opponent can take one back by rolling you to where you shot from. If he can, it just may not be the right choice. Of course that wasn't for you Tom, just a tid bit of info some players may like to know.

Dr. Bill
If I came to the table with this layout I would most likely shoot the shot that Frank and you chose. Easy for me to execute and I could probably leave the cueball on the bottom rail or close to it so my opponent would have no offensive shot. Good to look at all the options a lot of them really good depending on your skill set. My skill set would not leave me a number of the options.
 

Tom Wirth

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Lets look at it this way Tom. Hacker and Jeff likes the 10ball two rails into the 4ball and send the cue ball twice cross table shooting into a a target area the size of a balls width with a flat angle. Then Stroud and Dan like playing the carom on the 2ball that hasn't even been discussed as an option until now. Why can't Frank and I drop to the bottom rail off the 1ball, that option in comparison to all the other options that have been discussed looks very doable, don't you think?

Taking an intentional is certainly an option from this position. I like taking the intentional kicking into the 14ball or like you say toward the 4ball. Be careful when kicking toward the 4ball you could leave the 5ball carom. I agree with Hacker not being a good choice on your intentional shooting into the 13ball, all one needs to do is shoot you back where you shot from to negate the value with that choice.

When taking intentional's it should be a consideration before taking one to determine if your opponent can take one back by rolling you to where you shot from. If he can, it just may not be the right choice. Of course that wasn't for you Tom, just a tid bit of info some players may like to know.

Dr. Bill
Hi Bill, let me answer your last point first. If I simply lagged into the thirteen so softly that I did not disturb the two or six than I would agree with your statement, but the plan would be to loosen the two sufficiently to give me a path to drive the two into the foot rail and force follow the cue ball to the bottom rail. this way I may have a way of clearing a few balls from my opponent's scoring area. The kick at the fourteen seems to me to be more risky than the kick on the four. I could be wrong but that's how I see it.

The lag intentional up table has the same effect as that which you and Rob suggest my intentional would have been if I didn't create a new wrinkle to the position of the two or six. Just pushing the cue ball around accomplishes nothing unless you happen to be playing someone who refuses to think clearly about the potentials available to him.

As for the shot Rob is advocating. Great! if you can thread the needle with sufficient power and control to get the cue ball where it needs to be not to sell out. I can only say, that shot would be one of hopefulness for my skill set.

The carom on the two is a shot I had only glanced at and I don't wish to speculate because there is only one way to determine whether it is a serious contender, and that is while at the table and viewing it carefully from ever angle.

As for the one ball shot; if you can successfully pull it off a very high percentage of the time, than I would have to agree it is the best option.
I know me, and that shot is not one of my better ones. It is one I know I need to practice more, but than I need to practice all shots more but can't bring myself to put in the time.

Tom

PS BTW I was mistaken when I mentioned lagging into the two and thirteen. It should have been the two and twelve balls just enough to move the two free of the six.
 
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Tom Wirth

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If the 10 is not available and cannot be seen properly I do like Ghosts choice for the mere fact it is easily accomplished and forces my opponent to think defensively instead of aggressivily.
If he is still in an aggressive mode and tries to shoot a rail first on the 15 or a carom shot then good cause he gives himself a chance to give up his equity if he messes up.


If he goes defensive and takes a scratch and now we are playing needing 9 a piece which is right where I want him to be on this break.. Im not playing Mr 8 and out here. We are now playing a moving game. My game.

Robs shot is respectable and one I will take as well. Opening up my side of the rack is the imperative. Trying the best way to put balls on my side of the table.

PS Playing safe under the stack for me is a nono as it can lead to me back into the stack on my side. Troublesville.[/QUOTE]

Keone, I think this is only one of the reasons this form of intentional foul is a poor choice. Below you will see how the fifteen could be played while sending the cue ball toward the eight ball but the one ball could have been cut more severely and the cue ball would then be sent further to the right side of the stack eliminating any possible view of the left side of the table. This would leave the one ball along the foot rail and leave you in a world of trouble.Of course, your opponent could simply push the cue ball back into the same area you found yourself before your lag shot. His options are too numerous. One of your goals should be to limit his possible responses.

Should you play this intentional foul and your opponent succeed in hooking you in the stack with the fifteen on the foot rail and the one still along the side rail, you will wish you tried something a little more adventurous.

I do understand the thinking that we wish to avoid making blatant errors and hope our opponent will somehow do something stupid but usually that form of thinking only creates greater problems.

Tom
 

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Bobbytworails

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What about the ten into the 15 and force follow the cue ball to the middle diamond on the side rail, the 15 two rails of the bottom of the 4 and hopefully falls or stays close and he's doubled up? It's close on the angle, but I think it's just there
 
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darmoose

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Inasmuch as Dr Bill and Tom agree that getting the cue ball to the bottom rail, provided it can be done consistently, is the best option, I still think the easiest way to "reposition" the CB there, is to feather the right side of the 2 ball (assuming that the 4 ball cannot be cut into the opponents hole).

That position on the rail is better than where the CB would land coming off the 1 ball, because the CB could not be "repositioned" back into the stack from there.
 

keoneyo

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If the 10 is not available and cannot be seen properly I do like Ghosts choice for the mere fact it is easily accomplished and forces my opponent to think defensively instead of aggressivily.
If he is still in an aggressive mode and tries to shoot a rail first on the 15 or a carom shot then good cause he gives himself a chance to give up his equity if he messes up.


If he goes defensive and takes a scratch and now we are playing needing 9 a piece which is right where I want him to be on this break.. Im not playing Mr 8 and out here. We are now playing a moving game. My game.

Robs shot is respectable and one I will take as well. Opening up my side of the rack is the imperative. Trying the best way to put balls on my side of the table.

PS Playing safe under the stack for me is a nono as it can lead to me back into the stack on my side. Troublesville.
Keone, I think this is only one of the reasons this form of intentional foul is a poor choice. Below you will see how the fifteen could be played while sending the cue ball toward the eight ball but the one ball could have been cut more severely and the cue ball would then be sent further to the right side of the stack eliminating any possible view of the left side of the table. This would leave the one ball along the foot rail and leave you in a world of trouble.Of course, your opponent could simply push the cue ball back into the same area you found yourself before your lag shot. His options are too numerous. One of your goals should be to limit his possible responses.

Should you play this intentional foul and your opponent succeed in hooking you in the stack with the fifteen on the foot rail and the one still along the side rail, you will wish you tried something a little more adventurous.

I do understand the thinking that we wish to avoid making blatant errors and hope our opponent will somehow do something stupid but usually that form of thinking only creates greater problems.

Tom[/QUOTE]

"That's what Clyde attempted to do, and wound up selling out to me"-Ghost post#70.


I respectfully disagree with your analysis of the shot and conclusions.

For one I said I prefer opening my side of the stack in some way. Perhaps with the 10 ball. In lieu of Frank's shot which Billy is advocating I expressed I preferred to roll up to the top using the 1 as a blocker. Which happen to be Ghost's choice.

Your shot looks good on paper, or on the screen in this instance , but requires extreme dexterity, skill, and focus. You are frozen on the rail 4 and 1/2 feet away from the object ball which you are combination kicking at another object ball and sending whitey into the stack. There is a lot of potential for selling out here. A lot of pressure. Which is what I as your opponent want.

If you are feeling aggressive I am hoping you shoot the shot. It doesnt have to happen the way you drew it. In fact it didnt in practice and Clyde sold out the game to Luke by shooting that shot. So the proof is in the pudding. I know this is a small sample size but if you got 100 different players to shoot the shot your way I think it would end up more in my favor or at least neutral and provide an opportunity to get out of a powerful break.

Conversely if you decide to be passive and take a scratch and put me where I was or in the stack. I am confident that I can thinly come off a ball and put you on the bottom rail. And we are now playing 9/9.
 

Wayne

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Inasmuch as Dr Bill and Tom agree that getting the cue ball to the bottom rail, provided it can be done consistently, is the best option, I still think the easiest way to "reposition" the CB there, is to feather the right side of the 2 ball (assuming that the 4 ball cannot be cut into the opponents hole).

That position on the rail is better than where the CB would land coming off the 1 ball, because the CB could not be "repositioned" back into the stack from there.
if you feather the 2 then your opponent could just play a stop shot on the 6 sending it into the 12 and 9 or just off the 9 and towards his pocket. You will be in a world of hurt.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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"That's what Clyde attempted to do, and wound up selling out to me"-Ghost post#70.


I respectfully disagree with your analysis of the shot and conclusions.

For one I said I prefer opening my side of the stack in some way. Perhaps with the 10 ball. In lieu of Frank's shot which Billy is advocating I expressed I preferred to roll up to the top using the 1 as a blocker. Which happen to be Ghost's choice.

Your shot looks good on paper, or on the screen in this instance , but requires extreme dexterity, skill, and focus. You are frozen on the rail 4 and 1/2 feet away from the object ball which you are combination kicking at another object ball and sending whitey into the stack. There is a lot of potential for selling out here. A lot of pressure. Which is what I as your opponent want.

If you are feeling aggressive I am hoping you shoot the shot. It doesnt have to happen the way you drew it. In fact it didnt in practice and Clyde sold out the game to Luke by shooting that shot. So the proof is in the pudding. I know this is a small sample size but if you got 100 different players to shoot the shot your way I think it would end up more in my favor or at least neutral and provide an opportunity to get out of a powerful break.

Conversely if you decide to be passive and take a scratch and put me where I was or in the stack. I am confident that I can thinly come off a ball and put you on the bottom rail. And we are now playing 9/9.
Keone....we are analyzing and summing up this situation exactly the same - what you have said here, and what I posted earlier...

And now as for the particulars of Clyde selling out to me...as I said in post #70 ----->

"Clyde shot at the 1ball, attempting to play it rail first and then the 15ball to pocket the 15 - while floating the cueball over towards the 7 & 8balls to snooker me "


Now in looking at Tom's diagram/my pic, notice that window between the 10 and the 7ball..well, ironically, that's the same shot and the same tangent line that Clyde shot - except, Clyde hit the 1 a little too full and a little too soft, and didn't reach the 7ball - instead he left me in front of that window - where I could see, and cut into my pocket, the 4ball and the 3 ball - I then ran a few balls, then got out of line as usual :frus, did some 'housekeeping' around Clyde's pocket, then went and sat down with control of the table.

Students on this site, like I said before...if you don't have anything better..make your opponent shoot dead off the rail, only able to cue the top of the cueball, with distance, and he may very well not make a good enough shot, or not execute well enough - and now that intentional that you took - is golden.

- Ghost
 

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