GETTING THE ROLLS MOVERS vs SHOTTERS

sappo

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They say that over time the "good rolls' and the "bad rolls" even out. I know that if you flip a coin heads and tails somewhere out in the future they will statistically balance out, but im not so sure if thats true playing one pocket.

Take me for example, I move very well at least as compared to my shooting game. Most people I play tend to be considerably more aggresive. This means they shoot more low percentage shoots, they play using more cue ball speed and they sell out more often. Whereas Im shooting higher percentage shoots, rolling the cue ball alot softer with control, looking to trap my opponents and in general playing a "safer" game.

While I surely get "good rolls" I feel my opponents get many more than I do and at times this can get very frustrating. Yesterday was a good example of this and while I came at winner I couldnt stop thinking about all the great "rolls" he got, maybe 2 or 2 1/2 times as many as me. I mentioned to him sarcastically that hopefully the "rolls" would soon even out.

At home I started thinking that these "rolls" wont always even out especally when an aggressive shooter is playing a tighter mover. And if this is so, I shouldnt let the imbalance of the rolls bother me. Do you feel the same way?
Sappo
 

vapros

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If you are the mover and he is the shooter, then he is probably creating more motion on the table than you are - and thus more rolls - both good and bad. I'm not sure you're keeping track correctly. If his good and bad rolls even out, as they should, then they even out for you also. Every bad roll he gets is a good roll for you and should not be overlooked. The same is true when you are shooting. Your bad rolls are good for him, but on a separate scoresheet.

If you think you're getting the worst of it, over the long haul, maybe you are not being objective in naming the rolls.
 

androd

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I firmly believe some people are luckier doing some things. I knew a guy that couldn't play anything well. If he got you in a dead even gamble you were toast ! ( IE flipping coins, racing cockroaches etc.)
We all maximise the wins and forget about the losses. I get so many good rolls playing one pocket;) that I never pay any attention to the others.
Rod.
PS, An unwritten rule of pool the guy that plays the best gets the best rolls.:p
 

sappo

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Vapros, you make a good point about looking at your opponents both good and bad rolls to see if they balance out. its lodgical. thanks Sappo
 

androd

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One Pocket Ghost said:
You have, I hope, read my revised location, listed at the top right of my posts...:p
Anything wiggles and you back off, right ? :)
Rod.
 

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lll

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Cowboy Dennis said:
You already know why:eek: .
heres a question/point of view for you dennis.
you being a realist and not beleiving in luck because as you
say the balls went where they were supposed to based on how they were hit.
i cant disagree with that. in reality pool is applied physics.
however sometimes things happen that were different from the intended outcome of the shooter
whether the the q hit a piece of chalk/debris on the table that the shooter didnt see or the stroke was too hard/soft or the amount of english on the cue was not what was intended
so instead of getting what was planned an unintended result occurs


when the end result was favorable some say thats luck or a "good roll"
when the end result was not favorable some say thats unlucky or a "bad roll"

so i think we can agree that luck doesnt really happen it is just how colloquially its described, thats the science
but over the years havent you seen some people who seem to have the unintended results more often than not end up in their favor???

even tho the balls went where they were supposed to
dont you think they got "lucky"?:)
 

NH Steve

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sappo, I agree with what vapros said -- because the guys you are playing are turning the balls loose a lot more than you are, they are taking a lot more chances. Some percentage of all those chances are going to work out for them -- many others are not. But in calculating their good luck vs their bad luck, you're probably counting all of their good luck as good luck, but most of their sellouts as the natural consequences of the trap you left them in.

Taking more chances ---> more opportunity for good or bad things to happen
 

lll

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NH Steve said:
sappo, I agree with what vapros said -- because the guys you are playing are turning the balls loose a lot more than you are, they are taking a lot more chances. Some percentage of all those chances are going to work out for them -- many others are not. But in calculating their good luck vs their bad luck, you're probably counting all of their good luck as good luck, but most of their sellouts as the natural consequences of the trap you left them in.

Taking more chances ---> more opportunity for good or bad things to happen
.....agree
 

gulfportdoc

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lll said:
...so i think we can agree that luck doesnt really happen it is just how colloquially its described, thats the science
but over the years havent you seen some people who seem to have the unintended results more often than not end up in their favor???

even tho the balls went where they were supposed to
dont you think they got "lucky"?:)
The best example of that is Efren. Grady has commented --and I agree-- something to the effect that Efren seems to have such phenomenal good luck, that it's almost supernatural. He may have had the greatest success of any one-pocket player ever to play the game, but when he typically says, "I got lucky", it may not be purely condescending.;)

Doc
 

Cowboy Dennis

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lll said:
heres a question/point of view for you dennis.
you being a realist and not beleiving in luck because as you
say the balls went where they were supposed to based on how they were hit.
i cant disagree with that. in reality pool is applied physics.
however sometimes things happen that were different from the intended outcome of the shooter
I am not discussing "intent", I'm discussing actual results.
whether the the q hit a piece of chalk/debris on the table that the shooter didnt see or the stroke was too hard/soft or the amount of english on the cue was not what was intended
so instead of getting what was planned an unintended result occurs
Very few players take 100% responsibility for everything that happens on a shot at their turn at the table. I do.


when the end result was favorable some say thats luck or a "good roll"
when the end result was not favorable some say thats unlucky or a "bad roll"
A shot cannot be both things at once, therefore it's neither.

so i think we can agree that luck doesnt really happen it is just how colloquially its described, thats the science
I understand the need that people have to ascribe qualities to a shot or it's outcome, but I don't do it. Not ever, not for any amount, not in any situation.
but over the years havent you seen some people who seem to have the unintended results more often than not end up in their favor???
Yes, and they can usually be defined as "better players".

even tho the balls went where they were supposed to
dont you think they got "lucky"?:)
How anybody can reconcile these two conflicting ideas is beyond me, they are mutually exclusive in the extreme.
Larry & Sappo,

The assignation of "good" or "bad" to an event starts the mind on a perilous journey of anxiety, tension, nervousness, trepidation and worry. I prefer to play without those things weighing me down. You must see things clearly, as they are, in order to formulate a correct response to them.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Luck! we don't need no stinking luck.

Luck! we don't need no stinking luck.

gulfportdoc said:
The best example of that is Efren. Grady has commented --and I agree-- something to the effect that Efren seems to have such phenomenal good luck, that it's almost supernatural. He may have had the greatest success of any one-pocket player ever to play the game, but when he typically says, "I got lucky", it may not be purely condescending.;)

Doc
Luck is a residue of skill, if that's the kind of luck we're talking about.

Whenever your opponent steadily gets lucky, I mean all the time, I think YOUR the lucky one for having him as an opponent. :p :D ;)

Billy I.
 

lll

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Larry & Sappo,

The assignation of "good" or "bad" to an event starts the mind on a perilous journey of anxiety, tension, nervousness, trepidation and worry. I prefer to play without those things weighing me down. You must see things clearly, as they are, in order to formulate a correct response to them.

Dennis
the zen of pool:)
 

SJDinPHX

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Larry & Sappo,

The assignation of "good" or "bad" to an event starts the mind on a perilous journey of anxiety, tension, nervousness, trepidation and worry. I prefer to play without those things weighing me down. You must see things clearly, as they are, in order to formulate a correct response to them.

Dennis
Lets just say, there have been times when the pool God's have smiled on me, and times when they have crapped all over me...Fortunately, being of sound mind and body, I was able (from the age of 3 or 4) to tell the difference between the two..:cool: **see photo below..

PS..Also, you are very lucky I don't call you a "big, fat, bumbling lunatic"...who obviously doesn't have to worry about his brain weighing him down..:p :p :p



** Being as you're not sure RBL...this would be NOT be called "a good roll"...:eek

View attachment 1791

** Whereas both of these young ladies, are trying to get lucky..:p
 
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JohnInNH

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GETTING THE ROLLS MOVERS vs SHOTTERS

Sappo,

The rolls good and bad are what one pocket is all about, the fact that you were the winner of the match indicates to me that you had the best rolls, when I am losing games to my opponent that is when I would need to question what I am doing, correct it, of course a lot of it depends on my opposition, every opponent has strengths and weaknesses, over time these will show up, you must be able to adjust accordingly, sometimes I'm a mover, sometimes I'm a shooter.

good luck,

John
 
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