Gambling and the Break as a Spot in One Pocket

J.R.

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I have a question regarding the break in one pocket. I will present the question in its simplest layout. Additionally, there are no written house rules at Red Shoes Billiards regarding the below situation.

Two players are gambling. One of the players is getting each and every break as the spot. The only stipulation is that the player getting the spot must change pockets after each game. Both players agree to the stipulation.

The player getting the spot breaks to the left corner pocket in the first game. The player getting the spot breaks to the left corner pocket in the second game. After the player getting the spot breaks, his opponent states that this game must be restarted because he should have broken to the right corner pocket. The player getting the spot objects. An argument ensues and "you" are asked to make a decision on whether the game has started or whether the game must be re-racked and started again with the player getting the spot breaking to the right corner pocket.

How would you rule? Please provide the reasoning for your ruling.

I will provide additional information regarding the above situation and how I ruled in a few days.
 

BRLongArm

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Illegal break. Rerack. The players agreed the breaker would alternate pockets. This was not done, probably by mistake. Rerack.
 

Mkbtank

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Gambling and the Break as a Spot in One Pocket

Illegal break. Rerack. The players agreed the breaker would alternate pockets. This was not done, probably by mistake. Rerack.


Agreed. Rerack.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Why make a handicap if neither one of them can remember the very 1st. time it comes up. They sound like old guys! One guy is breaking for the wrong pocket, and the other guy is sleeping through it, come on give me a 'break'!

Ruling; give him two balls on your break, and no balls on his break, keep it simple! Whitey
 

lll

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if the guy was a jerk and wouldnt re rack
i would just keep playing with you (now the shooter) thanking him for surrounding your hole with balls and its your shot......:D
just like if he shoots one in your hole
you keep it and it ends his inning (if he didnt make one in his pocket too )
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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if the guy was a jerk and wouldnt re rack
i would just keep playing with you (now the shooter) thanking him for surrounding your hole with balls and its your shot......:D
just like if he shoots one in your hole
you keep it and it ends his inning (if he didnt make one in his pocket too )
Excellent point! For the non-breaker sleep through the break shot, but realized it afterwards, thus like you said, just could of thank him for putting balls by your pocket! Whitey
 
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jrhendy

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Unless it is hard core ‘You snooze you lose’, it should be a rerack or per Larry’s suggestion, you play the game out going for the correct hole.
 

El Chapo

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Excellent point! For the non-breaker sleep through the break shot, but realized it afterwards, thus like you said, just could of thank him for putting balls by your pocket! Whitey
I thought for sure that was going to be the question half way through the first post.

So, let me ask it... what happens if the incoming player says tough, that is your hole, you broke for the wrong hole that is your problem, not mine, and proceeds to shoot for the hole the breaker broke for?
 

lll

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if the guy was a jerk and wouldnt re rack
i would just keep playing with you (now the shooter) thanking him for surrounding your hole with balls and its your shot......:D
just like if he shoots one in your hole
you keep it and it ends his inning (if he didnt make one in his pocket too )
I thought for sure that was going to be the question half way through the first post.

So, let me ask it... what happens if the incoming player says tough, that is your hole, you broke for the wrong hole that is your problem, not mine, and proceeds to shoot for the hole the breaker broke for?
that is what i proposed .
what happens depends on the personality of the breaker.....:heh
 

wincardona

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I have a question regarding the break in one pocket. I will present the question in its simplest layout. Additionally, there are no written house rules at Red Shoes Billiards regarding the below situation.

Two players are gambling. One of the players is getting each and every break as the spot. The only stipulation is that the player getting the spot must change pockets after each game. Both players agree to the stipulation.

The player getting the spot breaks to the left corner pocket in the first game. The player getting the spot breaks to the left corner pocket in the second game. After the player getting the spot breaks, his opponent states that this game must be restarted because he should have broken to the right corner pocket. The player getting the spot objects. An argument ensues and "you" are asked to make a decision on whether the game has started or whether the game must be re-racked and started again with the player getting the spot breaking to the right corner pocket.

How would you rule? Please provide the reasoning for your ruling.

I will provide additional information regarding the above situation and how I ruled in a few days.
This is a sticky situation, technically the breaker should be forced to take the pocket opposite of the pocket he broke to, but that's taking it a bit too far. So what do you do in this situation? It is always good business to clarify before hand if you break toward the same pocket in succession then you keep the pocket you break to. It's up to both players to keep the game manageable and fair to ensure a smooth playing match, with the rule in place that if the breaker breaks for the same pocket twice in succession he keeps the pocket he broke to. This situation has come up thousands of times, particularly after the match has been played for many hours it's just good business to clarify the possible problems that may ensue and play under the revised terms.

What should you do in the above scenario? Flipping a coin for the solution and then clarify the potential problem by making the rule ..you snooze you lose.

Dr. Bill
 

beatle

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if playing with someone for a large amount you dont like i would certainly say you have the hole where the cueball is and its my shot. there is no rule you cant break from any side and you have the side opposite where you broke from unless you call otherwise.

friendlier game rerack and warn him next time tough luck. if he hit a bad break tell him okay this time but next time you have the other hole.

same thing in nine ball you dont tell the shooter he is shooting at the wrong ball, unless small bet and a friend.
 

johnnytronic

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this has happened to me just recently and it caused a big argument.
I was getting the breaks from a player that spots me the breaks quite often. In the past we have alternated pockets but this time either one of us talked about it and or forgot. Not all players spotting the breaks require that you alt pockets or even know why it's better to play this way. What if the spotter knows you prefer a pocket and he prefer's and runs balls better to the adjacent pocket. IN that case he wants you to not alternate the pocket.

This can be tricky even if both players agree on the alternating pocket. Like in my case, I had the game locked up by the time he said "Hey wtf, you broke to the same pocket twice" Well it's too late now, balls have been pocketed and we both forgot! What if he realized I broke to the wrong pocket but wanted to see how the game played out or if he can reverse the edge or had a dead ball. What if off the break he did have a dead ball and I realized it "sorry can't shoot it, broke on the wrong side" I can guarantee he would say "that's your problem" Im accepting this break.

Great breaks can win games right, IMO before the guy breaks you have to stop him and remind him. You can not do it after you asses the layout.
That's low integrity moves. It's justifiable because the agreement was made but it's drama in the making.
 

El Chapo

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Ok... purposefully break to the wrong pocket in an alternating pocket matchup. This is the bait.

You need to see what he does, there are only a few possible scenarios. But if he shoots for the wrong hole based on your break, you just run out to the correct hole you were supposed to be breakin for and rackem up.

I am just messin around. Ronnie supposedly did purposefully shoot to the wrong hole at times after a guy shot at the wrong pocket... at least i heard grady say that. Ronnie would duck a shot or two shooting at the wrong hole following the guy's lead. Then when ronnie got a good shot hed tell the guy he was shootin at the wrong hole and run out. :heh
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Get a 'red' poker chip and place it by the breaker's scoring pocket, and move it each time to the other side for each break. That way there is a secondary record, and not relying on memory as much. Now it takes two players to remember to move the chip, not easy! LOL.

I believe 7-ball is played this way to keep track of which side of the table the player has to pocket the 7. Correct me if I am wrong on this! Whitey
 

ChicagoFats

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Ok... purposefully break to the wrong pocket in an alternating pocket matchup. This is the bait.

You need to see what he does, there are only a few possible scenarios. But if he shoots for the wrong hole based on your break, you just run out to the correct hole you were supposed to be breakin for and rackem up.

I am just messin around. Ronnie supposedly did purposefully shoot to the wrong hole at times after a guy shot at the wrong pocket... at least i heard grady say that. Ronnie would duck a shot or two shooting at the wrong hole following the guy's lead. Then when ronnie got a good shot hed tell the guy he was shootin at the wrong hole and run out. :heh
Thats so sick. I think I did this once.
I really think we should use pocket markers the same way players cover their hole cards in poker.
 

Jim McCary

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I think there was an agreement before they started and when he broke to the wrong hole, there should be a rerack because there was a violation of the agreement. The guy breaking does not have a leg to stand on if he wants to argue.

Jim Mc
 

beatle

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in reality the game goes on and the breaker just knocked a bunch of balls in front of his opponents hole who now shoots.
 

lll

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if the guy was a jerk and wouldnt re rack
i would just keep playing with you (now the shooter) thanking him for surrounding your hole with balls and its your shot......:D
just like if he shoots one in your hole
you keep it and it ends his inning (if he didnt make one in his pocket too )
in reality the game goes on and the breaker just knocked a bunch of balls in front of his opponents hole who now shoots.
beatle
i am always amazed and encouraged when we agreee......:D
 

chicagomike

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Re-rack and break towards correct hole. No big deal in my book....If he refuses just go after his family....simple.;)
 

beatle

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it isnt that simple when gambling as what if he did make a ball in the hole he was supposed to have. now he may want it and want to keep shooting. so you cant have it both ways. so for any important games you have to specify what happens and when if broken to a wrong pocket.
if no one does that then you just have a player that made a big mistake and suffers from it. isnt that part of competition?
same if he forgets and shoots a ball in your hole. do you put it back and let him shoot again or do you just say thanks and now take the table.
 
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