Gabe Owen vs. Alex Pagulayan 2010 D.C.C.

Artie Bodendorfer

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senor said:
I was the same way Dennis :mad: Sucks for us. That's a big reason why my record against him was so poor...my slow starts. I had a decent game with him.

This is something else I witnessed, personally and against other players. If Gabe got to play you two, three or four days in a row, don't expect that slow start after the first day. He'll pick up on the next day right where he left off the day before, which was usually in a gear.
A good Qouistion is WHY do you start slow. Or what is the resaon that this happines.

Anylize it and find the answer and then change what you have too do so you do not repeat the same thing.

But youhave too find the answer why you start slow. Do you no that answer.

I dont no it. But I think you have a Idea what it is. And whay causes it.

IT has too be something that you do for this too happen.
 

KindlyOleUncleDave

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an idea

an idea

Bank the 14 but play it short ... leave the cueball on the side rail .... if the fellow wants to fly at the two railer, so be it .... with the cluster laying the way it is he is not apt to get out.... even the Lion.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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One Pocket Ghost said:
C'mon Artie...we remember who was the original, #1 America's Guest >>>

Meyer Siegel...:)

- Goast
Your wright and he was the best bite man I ever seen.

See how easy I agree when someone says something thats correct.

And Meyer Siegale was number one.

His face was a billion too one shot and everyone was scared too death off him.

Showe some pictures off Meyer Siegel. And people will understand everything by his picture.

I would go in a barr with Meyer and he would site down next too a man that had his money on the barr.

And Meyer would take all the money and but it in his pocket.

And then the man looket and all his money was gone and then he looket at meyer and Meyer would say what the F are you looking at.

After the man would look ay Meyers face he wouldnt say another word.

And we would go too bars when they would see Meyer coming they would say her champ see you latter.

They would pay him ten or twenty dollaers not too come in thier bar.

I was out with Meyer Siegale and Rory Oshea and we would go in a bar and Canadian pete would make fun off Meyer and he would chase Pet to catch him. But Canadian Pet was too fast.

And then theyb would call the police and the would stop Pete and Meyer from running all around the bar and knocking tables over.

And pet told the police thanks fellias for catching him for me. And Meyer Siegele would sucker punch Canadian Pete and knock him out.

And Meyer siegele would say again thanks fellowes I coulndt have cought him without youre help.

And they would take Pete and Meyer and lock them up. He was a ver unusuale caracter.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
A good Qouistion is WHY do you start slow. Or what is the resaon that this happines.

Anylize it and find the answer and then change what you have too do so you do not repeat the same thing.

But youhave too find the answer why you start slow. Do you no that answer.

I dont no it. But I think you have a Idea what it is. And whay causes it.

IT has too be something that you do for this too happen.
Artie,

It's not a negative thing to be a slow starter, in fact, I'd prefer it to being a fast starter. Slow starters know how to come from behind because we do it so often. Fast starters or others will never know the complete calm we feel because we know that it's coming soon. They can shoot our nuts in for awhile but when we make our move their games sometimes head south. Fast starters must feel a sense of dread when we start hitting the balls better and win a game or two. They are already playing their best and we don't care, we are just getting warmed up.

The bad thing about being slow from the git-go is when we get even, quite often the fast starters quit. That's the price we pay for being slow at the start but we are always there at the end if it goes the distance, but sometimes the fast starters aren't around anymore.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Artie,

It's not a negative thing to be a slow starter, in fact, I'd prefer it to being a fast starter. Slow starters know how to come from behind because we do it so often. Fast starters or others will never know the complete calm we feel because we know that it's coming soon. They can shoot our nuts in for awhile but when we make our move their games sometimes head south. Fast starters must feel a sense of dread when we start hitting the balls better and win a game or two. They are already playing their best and we don't care, we are just getting warmed up.

The bad thing about being slow from the git-go is when we get even, quite often the fast starters quit. That's the price we pay for being slow at the start but we are always there at the end if it goes the distance, but sometimes the fast starters aren't around anymore.

Dennis
If there ere any way of charting it I wouldn't be surprise to see fast starters have a win% of 750%I

N THE NBA BASED OFF THE POINT SPREAD HERES WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FAST STARTERS.

Indiana jumped out on Chicago and won by the point spread

Philadelphia jumed all over miami and won by the point spread

atl jumped out in front and ended up beating them outright

Port jumped out in front of dallas and lost late in the 4th quarter

memphis jumped out and beat san antonio

and the NY Knicks jumped on Boston and won

New Orleans jumped on the Lakers and won outright

and then finally Denver jumped ll over Oklahoma City and won by the point spread. So you have 6 out of a possible 8 winners win that jumped out first. That's a 750% win % pretty sporty.

Billy I.
 

NH Steve

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wincardona said:
If there ere any way of charting it I wouldn't be surprise to see fast starters have a win% of 750%I

N THE NBA BASED OFF THE POINT SPREAD HERES WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FAST STARTERS.

Indiana jumped out on Chicago and won by the point spread

Philadelphia jumed all over miami and won by the point spread

atl jumped out in front and ended up beating them outright

Port jumped out in front of dallas and lost late in the 4th quarter

memphis jumped out and beat san antonio

and the NY Knicks jumped on Boston and won

New Orleans jumped on the Lakers and won outright

and then finally Denver jumped ll over Oklahoma City and won by the point spread. So you have 6 out of a possible 8 winners win that jumped out first. That's a 750% win % pretty sporty.

Billy I.
Hey, good theory but Boston came back and won by two on a late 3-pointer by NBA record holder for career 3's, Ray Allen :D

edit -- you must have typo'd the Knicks/Boston result, because it looks like your 6/8 is right -- and Boston was real fortunate to pull it out.
 

gulfportdoc

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wincardona said:
If there ere any way of charting it I wouldn't be surprise to see fast starters have a win% of 75%
Of course the sample is too small to make that a valid statistic, but your point is well taken. I charted 60 or so matches (Steve did a similar study) to see the winning percentages of the first breaker. The first breaker won 60-65% of the matches.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the statistic was relatively similar when considering match winners who won the first game. I don't know if their speed at winning the first game is significant or not.;)

And this statistic has no bearing on open-ended play; for example playing by the game.

Doc
 

wincardona

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gulfportdoc said:
Of course the sample is too small to make that a valid statistic, but your point is well taken. I charted 60 or so matches (Steve did a similar study) to see the winning percentages of the first breaker. The first breaker won 60-65% of the matches.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the statistic was relatively similar when considering match winners who won the first game. I don't know if their speed at winning the first game is significant or not.;)

And this statistic has no bearing on open-ended play; for example playing by the game.

Doc
Players that get out of the gate the quickest have a distinct advantage in the match, that's obvious, at least to me. Teams who score the first touchdown also go on to win a high percentage of the games played. I would venture to say at least 70%. That's a guess but somewhat of an educated one.:)

If you have ever lived in Det. then you may have heard of the off at the track. There were a group of guys that had deals with ticket writers, and they would be allowed to bet 10 or so seconds after the race had started. They would have some sort of method to communicate with the guy at the window what horse had the lead and that's the horse that would be bet. How would you like to be able to do that? They referred that as "betting the off";)

I know of sports betters that would wait to see who received the ball first and made their bookmakers a bet on that team in a football game. It would be even a stronger bet if you could bet the first half only.:cool:

There are many advantages to get away from the gate the quickest. Being first in line isn't an option, it's a privilege.

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
Players that get out of the gate the quickest have a distinct advantage in the match, that's obvious, at least to me.


There are many advantages to get away from the gate the quickest. Being first in line isn't an option, it's a privilege.

Billy I.
Bill,

Other than having the ability to quit when their opponent catches up and gets even on the score (yes, some do:) ) I can't think of any advantage that a fast starter has in a gambling match unless it's a set to a certain number. Please enlighten us because I see more value in being the slow starter and more psychological advantage also.The fast starter is trying to hang on to what he has, that often wears on them.

In my own experience, the fast starters usually have rabbit in their blood and one foot out the door before the match starts, but that's just my experience.

P.S. None of those teams you mentioned had the real option of quitting when the slower starting team tied the game, poolplayers do it everyday and some make a well known habit of it.

Dennis
 

petie

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In short races like tournament matches the advantage is obvious. Maybe that's what happened to all of Efren's victims at DCC, they were just getting going. Marathon matches are different.

I'm surprised by the horse race statistic. The only way I could make sense of it would be if they were talking about Standard Breds. My impression of flat outs is that they almost always pace their horses for half the race and then make their move for the run down at the finish line. I'm no expert here, just sayin'.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Bill,

Other than having the ability to quit when their opponent catches up and gets even on the score (yes, some do:) ) I can't think of any advantage that a fast starter has in a gambling match unless it's a set to a certain number. Please enlighten us because I see more value in being the slow starter and more psychological advantage also.The fast starter is trying to hang on to what he has, that often wears on them.

In my own experience, the fast starters usually have rabbit in their blood and one foot out the door before the match starts, but that's just my experience.

P.S. None of those teams you mentioned had the real option of quitting when the slower starting team tied the game, poolplayers do it everyday and some make a well known habit of it.



Dennis
I dont get out off the gate quick. I wish I did but I dont. I guess its because off the weayher.
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Bill,

Other than having the ability to quit when their opponent catches up and gets even on the score (yes, some do:) ) I can't think of any advantage that a fast starter has in a gambling match unless it's a set to a certain number. Please enlighten us because I see more value in being the slow starter and more psychological advantage also.The fast starter is trying to hang on to what he has, that often wears on them.

In my own experience, the fast starters usually have rabbit in their blood and one foot out the door before the match starts, but that's just my experience.

P.S. None of those teams you mentioned had the real option of quitting when the slower starting team tied the game, poolplayers do it everyday and some make a well known habit of it.

Dennis
For anyone that would prefer to get out of the gate last, I would like to be their opponent.:)

Starting fast in a gambling match, or in a tournament sends the message that you're prepared to play and your backing it up by performing. Imo you have the psychological edge because you have already proven to your opponent and also yourself that your answering the challenge to perform. Not only that but your putting more pressure on your opponent then he had before the match started, and pressure is always an ally when it's burdening your opponent. There's a couple other factors that needs to be acknowledged, emotion, momentum, and confidence. Momentum and confidence are the advantages favoring the player that jumps out of the gate the quickest. Emotion is the burden placed on his opponent, and it's not the emotion of joy we're speaking of. I've seen too many matches where the player starting fast, never looked back.

You say that you relish the challenge of having to perform and you prefer to start slow and make a charge. The position you favor placing on yourself is a more taxing position, and in more cases than not that player will wear down first. It's a proven fact that a player that is under pressure for a longer period will wear down faster than the player that has the luxury to pace himself.

If that's the way you like it, more power to ya. But I wouldn't want to be ya.:D

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
For anyone that would prefer to get out of the gate last, I would like to be their opponent.:) Bill, I'm not in love with this aspect of my game but I've come to know it and understand it through the years.

Starting fast in a gambling match, or in a tournament sends the message that you're prepared to play and your backing it up by performing.This only sends the message in your mind, I don't receive messages when I'm gambling. You continuing to beat me is the only message received and then you must do it for quite a while. Imo you have the psychological edge because you have already proven to your opponent and also yourself that your answering the challenge to perform.I couldn't possibly care less about the performance challenges you are answering, that's in your mind, I'm just getting warmed up. Not only that but your putting more pressure on your opponent then he had before the match started, and pressure is always an ally when it's burdening your opponent.Trust me when I tell you, you cannot put pressure on me, only I can do that. There's a couple other factors that needs to be acknowledged, emotion, momentum, and confidence. Momentum and confidence are the advantages favoring the player that jumps out of the gate the quickest.Momentum & confidence often go south when the frontrunner starts losing. Emotion is the burden placed on his opponent, and it's not the emotion of joy we're speaking of.If you played me, you would see no emotion whatsoever. No joy & happiness from winning and no misery & sadness from losing. I've seen too many matches where the player starting fast, never looked back. No doubt you have seen this but it's never once happened to me.

You say that you relish the challenge of having to perform and you prefer to start slow and make a charge. The position you favor placing on yourself is a more taxing position, and in more cases than not that player will wear down first.A player who has confidence in his game will not wear down at all, in fact, we quite often wear down the frontrunner by sticking around and playing better every game. They can throw everything they have at us and we're still there, that's when they start to doubt. It's a proven fact that a player that is under pressure for a longer period will wear down faster than the player that has the luxury to pace himself.Again, I feel no pressure when losing or winning, that's in your mind.

If that's the way you like it, more power to ya. But I wouldn't want to be ya.:D Sweet, I hate playing guys who think like I do:D .

Billy I.
Bill,

The frontrunners often, but not always, fall apart when the slowstarters make their run. The frontrunners's game has nowhere to go but down and us slowstarters love watching them crumble. I've seen it many times just as you've seen the opposite.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Bill,

The frontrunners often, but not always, fall apart when the slowstarters make their run. The frontrunners's game has nowhere to go but down and us slowstarters love watching them crumble. I've seen it many times just as you've seen the opposite.

Dennis
I don't understand the term frontrunner?
Is a frontrunner someone who gets out of the gate first?
Or is a frontrunner someone that plays well only when he's in front?
If a frontrunner is a player that only plays well when he's in front, beware of the other guy who jumps out of the gate first, he may not be a frontrunner, he may be a longrunner.;)

Billy I.
 

wincardona

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
I dont get out off the gate quick. I wish I did but I dont. I guess its because off the weayher.
Mudders don't usually get out of the gate quick.

Billy I.
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Bill,

The frontrunners often, but not always, fall apart when the slowstarters make their run. The frontrunners's game has nowhere to go but down and us slowstarters love watching them crumble. I've seen it many times just as you've seen the opposite.

Dennis
Has anyone ever told you that you have better answers than Artie?:D

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
I don't understand the term frontrunner?
Is a frontrunner someone who gets out of the gate first?
Or is a frontrunner someone that plays well only when he's in front?
If a frontrunner is a player that only plays well when he's in front, beware of the other guy who jumps out of the gate first, he may not be a frontrunner, he may be a longrunner.;)

Billy I.
Bill,

Well, we were talking about slowstarters vs. quickstarters and I (erroneously) threw in the term "frontrunners". To me, "frontrunners" do play best when ahead and their game slips a bit when the slowstarter mounts the inevitable comeback.

Quickstarters are out of the gate fast and start out playing great & winning against a slowstarter. Their game also has nowhere to go but down when challenged by the slowstarters, although this does not always happen.

Point taken with the "frontrunner" vs. "longrunner" quip, it could be either but it doesn't matter to a slowstarter, we ain't going nowhere.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
Has anyone ever told you that you have better answers than Artie?:D

Billy I.
Bill,

Although I know you are just kidding me, I've often seen the same thought processes in AB's posts as in the way I think. It makes me think that there is hope for his game after all:p :eek: .

Dennis
 
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