F. Bustamante vs. J. Hall

Cowboy Dennis

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Bustamante has one ball and it's his shot. What would you do?


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fred bentivegna

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He doesnt have a good shot. But with the balls pretty much open he probably is just going to have to shoot at something and take a little the worst of it. My axiom is that I try not to shoot at something than is going to be harder than the shot I leave -- unless I have to. ie., if I miss the 5 straight back I am going to leave easier cross corners or cross sides

In this spot I guess I would have to go all out -- because it is pointless to try and play safe off of this shot -- on the 5 ball straight back. It is the highest percentage shot that you are the closest to. Take your medicine, bull your neck, and go ahead and fire at the 5 ball and shoot at it the best way that you know how!

The fact that you have little other choice should make you more comfortable shooting at this ball.

Beard
 
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wincardona

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He doesnt have a good shot. But with the balls pretty much open he probably is just going to have to shoot at something and take a little the worst of it. My axiom is that I try not to shoot at something than is going to be harder than the shot I leave -- unless I have to. ie., if I miss the 3 straight back I am going to leave easier cross corners or cross sides

In this spot I guess I would have to go all out -- because it is pointless to try and play safe off of this shot -- on the 3 ball straight back. It is the highest percentage shot that you are the closest to. Take your medicine, bull your neck, and go ahead and fire at the 3 ball and shoot at it the best way that you know how!

The fact that you have little other choice should make you more comfortable shooting at this ball.

Beard
I like your thinking on situations of this kind, however, he has a good shot with 'crossing the 7ball' and laying the cue ball on the bottom rail near the 2ball. There's also the possibility that he could even call the 7ball straight back and play the shot to position the cue ball where I mentioned.

I'm not going to shoot a shot like the 3ball when I have a good safety that is easy to execute like the 7ball safety.

Waiting for your reply, Fred.:sorry

Dr. Bill
 

fred bentivegna

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I like your thinking on situations of this kind, however, he has a good shot with 'crossing the 7ball' and laying the cue ball on the bottom rail near the 2ball. There's also the possibility that he could even call the 7ball straight back and play the shot to position the cue ball where I mentioned.

I'm not going to shoot a shot like the 3ball when I have a good safety that is easy to execute like the 7ball safety.

Waiting for your reply, Fred.:sorry

Dr. Bill
I looked at the straight back on the 7, but there isnt enough angle to get the cue ball far enough along the short rail to deny the oppo a cross side. To get the cue ball to where you want it, you would have to forego the straight back and just cross the 7 to a point where the cue ball would travel far enough under the ball on the spot to deny the cross side.

However, that wouldnt be so good either, because with the cue ball on the rail and straight in on the other ball (2)on the rail, if the oppo shoots that ball straight in and can get the cue ball to be frozen or almost frozen to the rail, after the ball is spotted up you will have difficulty playing off of those two spotted balls. I had already considered and discarded that option.

That is why you must consider what your opponent is going to do after you play your shot. :sorry There is much more to pool strategy than the obvious.:lol

Beard
 

wincardona

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I looked at the straight back on the 7, but there isnt enough angle to get the cue ball far enough along the short rail to deny the oppo a cross side. To get the cue ball to where you want it, you would have to forego the straight back and just cross the 7 to a point where the cue ball would travel far enough under the ball on the spot to deny the cross side.

However, that wouldnt be so good either, because with the cue ball on the rail and straight in on the other ball (2)on the rail, if the oppo shoots that ball straight in and can get the cue ball to be frozen or almost frozen to the rail, after the ball is spotted up you will have difficulty playing off of those two spotted balls. I had already considered and discarded that option.

That is why you must consider what your opponent is going to do after you play your shot. :sorry There is much more to pool strategy than the obvious.:lol

Beard
I showed you a good safety shot off the 7ball and you say you're afraid of leaving your opponent straight in on the 2ball,:frus Are you really serious, is that all it takes for you to pass on a shot that will get you out of trouble? Give me a break, if you're passing aup a good safety for that reason you should take up "sweating pool" instead of playing pool.:lol:sorry

Dr. Bill
 

Cowboy Dennis

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He doesnt have a good shot. But with the balls pretty much open he probably is just going to have to shoot at something and take a little the worst of it. My axiom is that I try not to shoot at something than is going to be harder than the shot I leave -- unless I have to. ie., if I miss the 3 straight back I am going to leave easier cross corners or cross sides

In this spot I guess I would have to go all out -- because it is pointless to try and play safe off of this shot -- on the 3 ball straight back. It is the highest percentage shot that you are the closest to. Take your medicine, bull your neck, and go ahead and fire at the 3 ball and shoot at it the best way that you know how!

The fact that you have little other choice should make you more comfortable shooting at this ball.

Beard
A little help perhaps:).


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fred bentivegna

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A little help perhaps:).


View attachment 9074
I edited my post (#3) to reflect the 5 ball as my choice of shot. I mistakenly called it the 3 ball.

Beard

In the above diagram, replace the 2 ball with the cue ball, as if you had just shot it in after Cardones safety, put the 2 ball on the spot and then someone tell me what to do safely from there? And if you can freeze the cue ball, I would really like to know the next shot.
 

wincardona

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I edited my post (#3) to reflect the 5 ball as my choice of shot. I mistakenly called it the 3 ball.

Beard

In the above diagram, replace the 2 ball with the cue ball, as if you had just shot it in after Cardones safety, put the 2 ball on the spot and then someone tell me what to do safely from there? And if you can freeze the cue ball, I would really like to know the next shot.
The 7ball bank as an option would be an option for those who don't want to gamble on banking the 5ball and risking the game on a "low percentage" shot, considering how the balls are positioned. Imo there are many players that would not be comfortable on gambling with banking the 5ball and leaving their opponent in an enviable situation if they should happen not to make the bank. And when I say a "low percentage " shot, it's low percentage considering the consequence one pays if the bank is missed.

In regard to the leave after shooting the 7ball. There are a few places that the cue ball can end up, and not all of those positions would leave your opponent with a simple "shoot and stick" option as a return shot. But even if you could shoot the 2ball into the pocket and freeze the cue ball to the cushion, you will have as an option to elevate and shoot across the ball under the spotted ball as an option. I myself and probably all the players on this site have at one time or another shot this shot and it's really not a difficult hit. And if you notice the 2ball and 9ball will be positioned to where they both will leave with a decent hit.

But the main point is not trying to figure out the perfect shot for the situation, when there aren't any that I can see. It's trying to determine what our options are and choosing the right one for whomever is shooting.

Maybe like you say that by banking the 7ball you will leave your opponent in a easy situation to play off of, however, by banking the 5ball you may leave your opponent in a wonderful situation to play off of as well. So maybe it's the "lesser of two evils" that we are confronted with.:heh Which was my point, all along.

Bill Incardona
 

fred bentivegna

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The 7ball bank as an option would be an option for those who don't want to gamble on banking the 5ball and risking the game on a "low percentage" shot, considering how the balls are positioned. Imo there are many players that would not be comfortable on gambling with banking the 5ball and leaving their opponent in an enviable situation if they should happen not to make the bank. And when I say a "low percentage " shot, it's low percentage considering the consequence one pays if the bank is missed.

In regard to the leave after shooting the 7ball. There are a few places that the cue ball can end up, and not all of those positions would leave your opponent with a simple "shoot and stick" option as a return shot. But even if you could shoot the 2ball into the pocket and freeze the cue ball to the cushion, you will have as an option to elevate and shoot across the ball under the spotted ball as an option. I myself and probably all the players on this site have at one time or another shot this shot and it's really not a difficult hit. (Yes it is, because even if you execute it, if you hit it too hard the ball or balls will return back to that end of the table; and unless you are somehow able to draw the cue ball from a frozen position, the cue ball will remain in the middle of the table, 2 diamonds up from the foot rail.) And if you notice the 2ball and 9ball will be positioned to where they both will leave with a decent hit.

But the main point is not trying to figure out the perfect shot for the situation, when there aren't any that I can see. It's trying to determine what our options are and choosing the right one for whomever is shooting.

Maybe like you say that by banking the 7ball you will leave your opponent in a easy situation to play off of, however, by banking the 5ball you may leave your opponent in a wonderful situation to play off of as well. So maybe it's the "lesser of two evils" that we are confronted with.:heh Which was my point, all along.

Bill Incardona
Let me be clearer. Firstly, the safety off of the 7 ball is certainly not a game losing shot. I just dont rate it as strong. I dont rate shooting the 5 ball as very strong either, but to me. it is the best of a difficult situation. I always believed if you are going to get in trouble anyway, you might as well shoot at something, especially if you are close to the object ball.

The difference between the 2 shots in this situation is not much ( nothing like the difference between the shot Efren chose in another diagram (Reyes, Pinegar) when he knocked off the corner ball and tried to freeze the cue ball from a bad position). However, call it reality or paranoia, it seems every bank solution I put up gets opposed by you, shutting off any further discourse that might perhaps lead somewhere --I might have been heading for! I am a very cagey fellow and sometimes I might be putting out little feelers and clues about things that I will slowly release later as the discourse develops.

Beard
 
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wincardona

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Let me be clearer. Firstly, the safety off of the 7 ball is certainly not a game losing shot. I just dont rate it as strong. I dont rate shooting the 5 ball as very strong either, but to me. it is the best of a difficult situation. I always believed if you are going to get in trouble anyway, you might as well shoot at something, especially if you are close to the object ball.

The difference between the 2 shots in this situation is not much ( nothing like the difference between the shot Efren chose in another diagram (Reyes, Pinegar) when he knocked off the corner ball and tried to freeze the cue ball from a bad position). However, call it reality or paranoia, it seems every bank solution I put up gets opposed by you, shutting off any further discourse that might perhaps lead somewhere --I might have been heading for! I am a very cagey fellow and sometimes I might be putting out little feelers and clues about things that I will slowly release later as the discourse develops.

Beard
In regard to your assessment on the spotted 2ball you said that if you hit the shot too hard the balls will come back down table. :confused: Not the way I see it, if you notice the position of the 2ball and the 9ball you will see and agree that that's not going to happen.

Bill Incardona
 

fred bentivegna

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In regard to your assessment on the spotted 2ball you said that if you hit the shot too hard the balls will come back down table. :confused: Not the way I see it, if you notice the position of the 2ball and the 9ball you will see and agree that that's not going to happen.

Bill Incardona
Actually, it looks like you might have some difficulty being able to move both of the balls at the same time. If you could only move one that would be another problem.

Beard
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Let me be clearer. Firstly, the safety off of the 7 ball is certainly not a game losing shot. I just dont rate it as strong. I dont rate shooting the 5 ball as very strong either, but to me. it is the best of a difficult situation. I always believed if you are going to get in trouble anyway, you might as well shoot at something, especially if you are close to the object ball.

The difference between the 2 shots in this situation is not much ( nothing like the difference between the shot Efren chose in another diagram (Reyes, Pinegar) when he knocked off the corner ball and tried to freeze the cue ball from a bad position). However, call it reality or paranoia, it seems every bank solution I put up gets opposed by you, shutting off any further discourse that might perhaps lead somewhere --I might have been heading for! I am a very cagey fellow and sometimes I might be putting out little feelers and clues about things that I will slowly release later as the discourse develops.

Beard
What the hell is wrong with you Freddy? You give out a tidbit like this and don't even acknowledge that you gave it out:confused:. You sir are slipping:p.

RBL
 

Cowboy Dennis

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A cookie is given and then taken back. Busty banked the 5 straight-back but the rock hit the 1 ball on it's way to the rail and caused him to scratch in the corner.


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NH Steve

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I like your thinking on situations of this kind, however, he has a good shot with 'crossing the 7ball' and laying the cue ball on the bottom rail near the 2ball. There's also the possibility that he could even call the 7ball straight back and play the shot to position the cue ball where I mentioned.

I'm not going to shoot a shot like the 3ball when I have a good safety that is easy to execute like the 7ball safety.

Waiting for your reply, Fred.:sorry

Dr. Bill
7-ball straight back looks like about the safest option to me too -- crossing over with the cue ball and parking it bottom rail.
 

fred bentivegna

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7-ball straight back looks like about the safest option to me too -- crossing over with the cue ball and parking it bottom rail.
Steve, have you been following this thread? First of all, even Cardone acknowledged that trying to actually MAKE the 7 ball straight back was probably not a good idea. The 7 is not laying in a good place. It's like a half-ass trick shot because you would need to cross it with english, or else make a super tough cross over with no english, but with a special "grab" stroke that would allow the object ball to "turn" enough to make it.

Shooting the 7 either of those ways would nullify laying the cue ball down flat on the bottom rail, which would be the supposed best result of this shot according to Cardone, but which, as I so ably described, wouldnt really put anyone very much in trouble.

Remember one thing, we are not trying to find the best safety in this situation, but the best option to take under the circumstances.

Incidentally, I once commentated on a match that Busty played. He tried to make a key bank in 1pkt,and didnt know how to beat the kiss, missed it badly and lost the game. After the match I asked him if he would like to know how to beat that kiss, and he said yes. As fate would have it, I was commentating another of his matches later that day or the next day (I have since forgotten), and that shot amazingly came up again, and this time he executed it perfectly.

Beard
 

wincardona

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Steve, have you been following this thread? First of all, even Cardone acknowledged that trying to actually MAKE the 7 ball straight back was probably not a good idea. The 7 is not laying in a good place. It's like a half-ass trick shot because you would need to cross it with english, or else make a super tough cross over with no english, but with a special "grab" stroke that would allow the object ball to "turn" enough to make it. ( I said that it hasn't yet been determined if the bank will go or not, however, if the angle is there for one to "naturally" float the bank and cue ball to the bottom rail then the option now becomes much more appealing. But the angle is there to float the cue ball to the bottom rail and try to leave it (cue ball) on the rail, which then will negate your return shot of making the 2ball and positioning the cue ball on the rail "frozen".)

Shooting the 7 either of those ways would nullify laying the cue ball down flat on the bottom rail, which would be the supposed best result of this shot according to Cardone, but which, as I so ably described, wouldnt really put anyone very much in trouble. ( The shot isn't meant to put anyone in trouble, it's a type of a shot that will get you away from a situation that you don't want to deal with. After the shot is executed then it's up to your opponent to make a decision what he wants to do. And once again..if you're frozen or off the rail shooting at the 9ball that is positioned under the respotted 2ball you will have a manageable option with elevating and shooting off the 9ball.)
Remember one thing, we are not trying to find the best safety in this situation, but the best option to take under the circumstances.

Incidentally, I once commentated on a match that Busty played. He tried to make a key bank in 1pkt,and didnt know how to beat the kiss, missed it badly and lost the game. After the match I asked him if he would like to know how to beat that kiss, and he said yes. As fate would have it, I was commentating another of his matches later that day or the next day (I have since forgotten), and that shot amazingly came up again, and this time he executed it perfectly.

Beard
Your last comment was this..

we are not trying to find the best safety in this situation, but the best option to take under the circumstances.
Isn't that what this discussion is about? Maybe the "safety" for some...is the best option:frus

Bill Incardona
 
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wincardona

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Your last comment was this..



Isn't that what this discussion is about? Maybe the "safety" for some...is the best option:frus

Bill Incardona
Why is it that you refuse to acknowledge that the 7ball option is a valid option? It gets you away from a situation that you can easily lose the game by shooting the offensive shot (5ball bank) Plus, it lessens the pressure and doesn't leave you in a confused state if you should happen to shoot the 5ball bank and sell out. Yes these things are reality and should be acknowledged.

Earlier you made this quote, which was a very good one but it doesn't apply.

I always believed if you are going to get in trouble anyway, you might as well shoot at something, especially if you are close to the object ball.
Yes that's the quote that your "nut hugger" Cowboy brought to every ones attention, but was too ignorant to understand that it shouldn't apply to this situation because of the fact that you weren't in trouble as long as you had the escape option with the 7ball.:frus

Your axioms are very instructional and the principles they carry should be respected. However, it's not fair to use them when there are other ways to effectively deal with a situation.

If I have insulted you again it's not my intention. My intention was to say exactly what I said and for the obvious reasons why I said them. Which to me is obvious. Sorry for my bluntness.

Bill Incardona
 

fred bentivegna

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Why is it that you refuse to acknowledge that the 7ball option is a valid option? It gets you away from a situation that you can easily lose the game by shooting the offensive shot (5ball bank) Plus, it lessens the pressure and doesn't leave you in a confused state if you should happen to shoot the 5ball bank and sell out. Yes these things are reality and should be acknowledged.

Earlier you made this quote, which was a very good one but it doesn't apply.



Yes that's the quote that your "nut hugger" Cowboy brought to every ones attention, but was too ignorant to understand that it shouldn't apply to this situation because of the fact that you weren't in trouble as long as you had the escape option with the 7ball.:frus

Your axioms are very instructional and the principles they carry should be respected. However, it's not fair to use them when there are other ways to effectively deal with a situation.

If I have insulted you again it's not my intention. My intention was to say exactly what I said and for the obvious reasons why I said them. Which to me is obvious. Sorry for my bluntness.

Bill Incardona
I think you have been smoking too many "blunts.":lol In a real game if you ever passed up the 5 ball I would go for a 3 way with Janet Napolitano and Hillary Clinton. I would have to wear a dress and wig in order to trick them enough to go for it, of course.

Beard
 

wincardona

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I think you have been smoking too many "blunts.":lol In a real game if you ever passed up the 5 ball I would go for a 3 way with Janet Napolitano and Hillary Clinton. I would have to wear a dress and wig in order to trick them enough to go for it, of course.

Beard
I'm not responsible for what you choose to do, you're going to have to live with the decisions you make...off and on the table.:sorry

Bill Incardona
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