end game again #2

Cowboy Dennis

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let me be the devils advocate and make another argument for the shot chosen and against the bank
..................
with the score 7-6 me
isnt it better for both balls to be up table if its not a lock to make the bank??????
Of the three that will answer you:

One has never played on a 5' x 10'.

One has no money to gamble with.

One sets it up on a 9' table and think that translates to a 10' table.

My shot was a good shot.

Dennis
 

onepockethacker

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let me be the devils advocate and make another argument for the shot chosen and against the bank
..................
with the score 7-6 me
isnt it better for both balls to be up table if its not a lock to make the bank??????
Larry the bank was the right shot especially on a 10 footer... What do you think Efren, Scott or Alex would have shot here? They would bank the 6 ball up table HOPING not to leave a shot that will lose the game:rolleyes: Larry if you want to learn the game try listening to the best players on the site, guys that have played top players before... not some jerkoff who never played anyone and never will play anyone.. He does have a nice collection of videos and him posting WWYD's is appreciated but you are not going to learn a thing about how to play the game right from him.. Some people can watch all the videos they want and never UNDERSTAND how to play the game the right way.
You are getting good at posting WWYD's yourself Larry and you play at LEAST as good as Denise.. Remember Larry...Billy Incardona and Steve Lomako know Denises speed REAL good so when they tell you he couldn't play a lick take it in..
 

onepockethacker

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let me be the devils advocate and make another argument for the shot chosen and against the bank
..................
with the score 7-6 me
isnt it better for both balls to be up table if its not a lock to make the bank??????
Larry the best shot was banking the 6 ball.. if you are going to play safe in this situation you do it as Frank suggested.. The worst option by far was the one Dennis suggested.. you dont bank the 6 up table and HOPE you dont leave anything...
 

wincardona

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The problem with posting answers for the wwyd's is that there are times when we can't depict the angle that the shooter see's when he's at the table, this ahould be understood and taken as a positive as opposed to a reason to argue.

Lets take the bank on the 6ball as an example. I read the angle as a natural bank, i stated that in my post and no one disagreed with my description of the angle, with that understanding we then have a position that was debatable. The people/players that were advocating other options were now under the impression that the angle on the 6ball bank was a decent angle to execute the shot the way it was perceived by me and we continued our discussion. I set up the shot on my table and shot the shot a half dozen times and the hit was a little steep to play the shot comfortably which then lowered the appeal of the option, however, if the angle is there (like everyone assumed) then it's the best shot by far. This type of a shot plays the same on a 4-1/2 x 9 as it does on a 5x10, no difference.

The shot Frank came with as a defensive shot is the correct shot to choose if you want to play passively and protect the lead. The shot Dennis suggested is not a good shot because you can lose with it and can't win. If you're not going to play an offensive shot then you must play a defensive shot that guarantees that you wont leave a shot, like Frank's shot, not a defensive shot that you have to HOPE doesn't leave a return shot. Anyone who advocates that type of shot and refuses to see how weak it actually is, then their choice shouldn't be respected, period.

Dr. Bill
 
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lll

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could someone draw the shot and where the cue ball ends up please
bank the 6 option.jpg
 

lll

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rob and bill and tom
i am not disagreeing with your opinions
FOR SURE YOU GUYS KNOW MORE THAN ME
i talked with the player who shot the shot
he didnt remember what he did but when he set it up
he ended up shooting it the same way
6 ball into the side rail
into the stripe
cue ball to the foot rail

my devils advocate was his response to me for why he shot it that way
granted he is a 9/10 ball player but it seemed reasonable to me
that was the shot i was discussing
 

Tom Wirth

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rob and bill and tom
i am not disagreeing with your opinions
FOR SURE YOU GUYS KNOW MORE THAN ME
i talked with the player who shot the shot
he didnt remember what he did but when he set it up
he ended up shooting it the same way
6 ball into the side rail
into the stripe
cue ball to the foot rail

my devils advocate was his response to me for why he shot it that way
granted he is a 9/10 ball player but it seemed reasonable to me
that was the shot i was discussing
Here is the way I played the shot after I learned the speed allowed for the up and down with the cue ball while also controlling the speed of the object ball. This was hit with a follow stroke with no english. It could not have played any more natural.

It would not make a hill of beans difference whether the shot was played on a ten foot table, a nine foot table, or a seven footer. The angles and ratios remain the same.

Tom
 

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lll

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Here is the way I played the shot after I learned the speed allowed for the up and down with the cue ball while also controlling the speed of the object ball. This was hit with a follow stroke with no english. It could not have played any more natural.

It would not make a hill of beans difference whether the shot was played on a ten foot table, a nine foot table, or a seven footer. The angles and ratios remain the same.

Tom
thanks tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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let me be the devils advocate and make another argument for the shot chosen and against the bank
..................
with the score 7-6 me
isnt it better for both balls to be up table if its not a lock to make the bank??????
Larry,

If you remember the shot that Frank put up as an option below, I had already drawn it up and was going to post it as my choice but ruled it out because I'd be rolling the cueball a good distance and needing to trust the table to roll straight. That is one difference that the one-pocket gods here pay no heed to and it's why you need 10' table experience to say definitively what you would do on one.


frank's shot.jpg
 

beatle

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hey if you hit the bank great as some always do then shoot it. but with coming somewhat short on the cueball speed you leave a fairly easy shot on the 13.
or if you hit the 6 ball just a smidgen too full or thin the cueball doesnt end up quite where you want it or you leave him a way to get out and win in one turn..

and on 10 foot tables your speed control is much harder going up and down table.
 

Tom Wirth

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hey if you hit the bank great as some always do then shoot it. but with coming somewhat short on the cueball speed you leave a fairly easy shot on the 13. or if you hit the 6 ball just a smidgen too full or thin the cueball doesnt end up quite where you want it or you leave him a way to get out and win in one turn..and

Beatle, Can't that be said for most shots that are not foolproof? So what's a guy to do? Wait for the gimmie that almost never comes? At some point when you step into the arena you must take it to your opponent or fold up the tent and go home. Here is a shot that can win the game with a reasonably low risk of selling out.

On the other hand, sometimes the risk is greater by not shooting the offensive shot. That can be labeled "missed opportunity." You may have just given your opponent new life.

Is it a fine line between the two choices? Yes, but the idea that must be maintained is that if the shot is not within your capacity at this moment due to inexperience then go to the practice table and learn to execute these shots. Don't turn your back on them claiming it is the wrong shot for you. Really, just how tough is this shot?

on 10 foot tables your speed control is much harder going up and down table.


I disagree with this statement Beatle. It is all in making minor adjustments like going from a very fast table to one which rolls like traveling through mud. Good player adjust quickly to all conditions.
Believe me, the transition is not difficult if you know how to play pool. Which, unlike Dennis, I do. He knows not what he speaks of. Again, I do.


Sorry for the lecture but I do get passionate about some of this stuff.

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Believe me, the transition is not difficult if you know how to play pool. Which, unlike Dennis, I do. He knows not what he speaks of.

Tom
Must I hear from all three of you girls everytime I reply to anything? If so I don't need to be here. It would save me a lot of time and work.

You've never played on a 10' table, you are the one who doesn't know anything. I've seen much better players than you shoot that bank on the 6 and scratch in the side or the uptable corner on a 10' pooltable AND on a tight 10' snooker table. You are the one who's grasping at straws here. I've played on tight and loose 10' tables many times up to and including the one at the Rack, but only one match on that table. Of course I was about 21 yrs. old at the time.

The shallow end Tom, go play in the shallow end.
 

Tom Wirth

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Must I hear from all three of you girls everytime I reply to anything? If so I don't need to be here. It would save me a lot of time and work.

You've never played on a 10' table, you are the one who doesn't know anything. I've seen much better players than you shoot that bank on the 6 and scratch in the side or the uptable corner on a 10' pooltable AND on a tight 10' snooker table. You are the one who's grasping at straws here. I've played on tight and loose 10' tables many times up to and including the one at the Rack, but only one match on that table. Of course I was about 21 yrs. old at the time.

The shallow end Tom, go play in the shallow end.
This is the only statement of yours on which I agree. I wonder if a poll was taken, who they would agree with on the rest of your comments. Responding to you is like responding to the small child who continues to ask why to everything. You bore my with your ridiculousness.

You could drowned yourself in a teacup.

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Here comes a genius response.
This is the only statement of yours on which I agree. I wonder if a poll was taken, who they would agree with on the rest of your comments. Responding to you is like responding to the small child who continues to ask why to everything. You bore my with your ridiculousness.

You could drowned yourself in a teacup.

Tom
Well, as long as you want me to leave then.................................I think I'll stay.

The shallow end Tom, go play in the shallow end.
 

wincardona

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This is the only statement of yours on which I agree. I wonder if a poll was taken, who they would agree with on the rest of your comments. Responding to you is like responding to the small child who continues to ask why to everything. You bore my with your ridiculousness.

You could drowned yourself in a teacup.

Tom
Tom i'm sorry for you, really. Your understanding of the game is "light years" ahead of Dennis's. He just likes to argue with good players or put them down thats his m.o. Fortunately there are educated players on this site that can see through all his absurdities. He threatened to leave the site, what would we do with out him? He was gone for several months and things weren't doing well so he decided to come back and save us. Dennis your logic is priceless and your shot selections are interesing and informative, thanks for your insight. Now if you will, dig up another wwyd.

Dr. Bill
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Responding to you is like responding to the small child who continues to ask why to everything.

Tom
I'll bet you've asked me "why" more than I've ever asked you anything since I don't think much of your knowledge. It's amazing how people end up "outing" themselves if you give them time.


Tom Wirth said:
What is there to gain from aquiring this knowledge?
Tom Wirth said:
And if I had someone on the sidelines counting the innings for me to come up with an average, what would I conclude from that information.
Tom Wirth said:
Say I were playing someone and found that during one particular session I was averaging 20% or 30% more shots to escape their break? Does that mean this opponent is better than average?
Tom Wirth said:
Does it mean I'm not playing up to my standards?

Tom Wirth said:
Dennis,
You are of course absolutely correct in stating that one fourty game session is too short a sample to make final conclusions with regards to the value of a one ball handicap between two top flight players. I admit that this conclusion initially may have been premature but I later continued accumilating this kind of data. The overall numbers changed here and there but not to a significant extent. In watching two equal, yet novice players spar, the number of games going to the last ball increased greatly. I also measured the average number of OPEN racks various players needed to win games. In other words, given an open table with a clear and easy shot, how many balls will this player typically run? How many balls will I run on average given the same situation? As an example; if it takes my opponent three open opportunities on average to get out and it takes me an average of two, then I felt I could be far more aggressive with that player. These are the kinds of statisics I find extremely helpful when trying to match up.

When it came to measuring the winning percentage regarding the break I liken this to the serve in Tennis. Player's serves will be broken on occasion but overall the serve should be an advantage to the server. All things are relative.

You are also right in your statement that there are many factors which could be in play in determining the value of the break. I know of many players who never practice their break, and it shows. I was first hand witness to Strawberry's second One Pocket tournament held in Laurel, Maryland where one dark horse player went through a field which included Grady M., Cliff J., and Jose P., as well as a few other prominant players. He did this with the help of an "awesome break" as Jose had commented after losing in the final. This guy broke a ball in an average of three times out of five in each of the race to five matches he played. In mose cases he ran out from the break. In each of his matches he played on a different table. He had practiced the break before the tournament began, experimenting from table to table with various speeds and slight angle changes just to see how aggressive he could get with the break without selling out.

In the end without the advantage of his break he knew he could never have beaten Jose in the final which ended five games to four. In that match he broke a ball in four times running eight and out three times and running six on the fourth occasion.

The break can be an awesome weapon if it is practiced as much as it should be.

Tom
Cowboy Dennis said:
Tom,

No need to cloak your stories in riddles, Google is everyone's friend. We have enough here who point at themselves to prove a point anyway and they aren't shy about letting everyone know it nor should you be.


Dennis
As it turned out Tom you asked me all these questions so you could reveal to the forum that you played Jose Parica in a tourney finals and made a ball on the break 4 breaks out of 5 and ran 3 eight & outs behind that. You then pretended that the break was oh so important just to make your feeble point. Do things like this happen to you all the time?


Tom Wirth said:
Okay, so shoot me for using the third person in my arguement. Not everyone knows of my history and I was not trying to "cloak myself" as you say. I simply wished to keep focused on the fact that there is great value to the break in One Pocket. I used personal history as an example simply to illustrate my point.
Of course you didn't want to let everyone know that you beat Parica, of course you didn't.
 
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