end game again #2

wincardona

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Good question Doc. This is a 5x10 with tough pockets, with that understanding one should adopt the mind set to play the game utilizing distance as an ally. In this situation the 6ball bank is a perfect shot to employ that type of strategy. I would shoot the 6ball bank on this table against the best players in the world knowing that none of them will like what I leave, none of them.

Will I do the same on a 4-1/2 by 9? Not against a top player but I would against a player that doesn't like to shoot. This move is a strong move and shouldn't be undervalued, it apply's pressure and sends a message that you're not afraid to shoot these types of shots which in turn earns you respect and that's important playing anyone.

I have played quite a bit of pool myself on a 5x10 in Detroit, and have watched some of the best 5x10 players around play the game, players like Cornbread Red, Jersey Red, and many other top 5x10 players. Playing on a 5x10 with tough pockets is an up table game, play the cue ball up table and let anyone shoot, that's the way the games played on a tough 5x10.

Dr. Bill
Let me rephrase what I have in bold. Would I shoot this exact shot against a top player on a 4-1/2 x 9, probably so if I felt that I could hit the bank reasonably well. Would I play the same "up table" strategy against a top player? To a degree. Playing this type of strategy is not black and white there are many considerations one should have when opting to play up table with the cue ball in challenging situations. Such as ..how balls are positioned..score..pocket size..opponents mind set..emotional waters..and how quickly you want the game to be played..and more.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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There are other options.
View attachment 14263
Much better defensive shot Frank.

Your shot doesn't position both balls on your opponents side of the table, nor does it give up any type of a offensive return shot. This would be an excellent option for those who want to protect the 2 to 1 advantage in the score. Hopefully some of the other players on the site can interpret this.

Dr. Bill
 

lll

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what is the down side if you leave the 6 on the long rail??
and what is the risk if you leave the 6 on the short rail??
basically what i am asking unless you feel you are a 90% to make it or leave it in the jaws you will leave one of the 2 results
 

Frank Almanza

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what is the down side if you leave the 6 on the long rail??
and what is the risk if you leave the 6 on the short rail??
basically what i am asking unless you feel you are a 90% to make it or leave it in the jaws you will leave one of the 2 results
Putting it on the long rail you know he is playing defense. If you put it on the short rail you give him a chance to tie the game.
 

wincardona

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what is the down side if you leave the 6 on the long rail??
and what is the risk if you leave the 6 on the short rail??
basically what i am asking unless you feel you are a 90% to make it or leave it in the jaws you will leave one of the 2 results
The risk is minimal playing on a 5x10 with tough pockets. You must consider the angle that your return shot leaves. I say this because of the difficulty it poses to play position on the out ball if the shot is pocketed. Pocketing the stripe is a very difficult shot on a 5x10 with tough pockets from the distance your opponent will be shooting from. That coupled with the angle he will be looking at will complicate an already complicated shot in terms of accuracy. Any smart player taking on such a task will cinch the stripe and go from there, or pass on the shot.

Lets look at post#9. If I were playing anyone I would want them to shoot the stripe, needing one ball to their two. If the 6ball ended up on the side rail then the player would probably just knock it away, and if he didn't he probably would either miss the stripe and lose or pocket the stripe and knock the 6ball away. I'm betting that if the 6ball ended up on the side rail your opponent would not shoot the stripe.


Pretty good spot to be in for the player that shoots the 6ball, plus he could possibly pocket the 6ball and we wouldn't have to figure all this other stuff out.:heh

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom,

I think you are better off in the shallow end of the pool where your friends can wrap their arms around you and tell you that you are right, you seem to do better that way.

Apparently you are simply playing out an intellectual exercise, not ever having played a match on a 10' table and having no real experience with it.

The chat between us is over.

Dennis
Not quite Dennis, The right shot has been pointed out by only the best players and minds on the site, and you happen to have been in support of the weakest shot but can't bring yourself to back off and admit that shot sucks.

Whether the situation shows up on a 9 foot table or a ten foot table will not change the fact that the bank on the six is the best shot and the shot which was executed in this thread was weak at best.

As far as your offensive remarks about shallow end of the pool, when have you ever ventured to stick your big toe in either end of that pool. Maybe those friends of mine you speak so insulting of are not defending me but are simply exercising their opinions about this thread.

Those same guys have disagreed with my opinions more than just a few times and you do them a disservice to suggest they would compromise their opinions just to back me up. What a laugh!

Tom
 

gulfportdoc

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Good question Doc. This is a 5x10 with tough pockets, with that understanding one should adopt the mind set to play the game utilizing distance as an ally. In this situation the 6ball bank is a perfect shot to employ that type of strategy. I would shoot the 6ball bank on this table against the best players in the world knowing that none of them will like what I leave, none of them.

Will I do the same on a 4-1/2 by 9? Not against a top player but I would against a player that doesn't like to shoot. This move is a strong move and shouldn't be undervalued, it apply's pressure and sends a message that you're not afraid to shoot these types of shots which in turn earns you respect and that's important playing anyone.

I have played quite a bit of pool myself on a 5x10 in Detroit, and have watched some of the best 5x10 players around play the game, players like Cornbread Red, Jersey Red, and many other top 5x10 players. Playing on a 5x10 with tough pockets is an up table game, play the cue ball up table and let anyone shoot, that's the way the games played on a tough 5x10.

Dr. Bill
After your and Rob's (and Tom's) comments, I'm warming to the 6 ball bank, at least on a 10-footer. I like that type of bank, so I have no qualms against shooting it. But the circumstance I'd be considering is whether the position of the two balls would allow for banking the 6 at pocket speed, and to have the CB reasonably roll up to the head rail. In this case it appears that it would. If it wouldn't, then I wouldn't like the shot because the striped ball cut is too makeable.

On a 9' table I'd for sure play off the striped ball-- either with my shot early in the thread, or with Frank's.

~Doc
 

Tom Wirth

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After your and Rob's (and Tom's) comments, I'm warming to the 6 ball bank, at least on a 10-footer. I like that type of bank, so I have no qualms against shooting it. But the circumstance I'd be considering is whether the position of the two balls would allow for banking the 6 at pocket speed, and to have the CB reasonably roll up to the head rail. In this case it appears that it would. If it wouldn't, then I wouldn't like the shot because the striped ball cut is too makeable.

On a 9' table I'd for sure play off the striped ball-- either with my shot early in the thread, or with Frank's.

~Doc
Art, I just took this shot to my table which is playing a bit fast at present because I recently had the table recovered. I first tried to kill the cue ball from getting much further than the side pocket. That's not an option. The angle is too severe.

Next I played the shot with left hand english and spun the cue ball off the foot rail and side rail leaving a straight in shot on the striped ball but within a half inch of the head rail. The object ball laid on the foot rail and within a few inches of the pocket. I liked this result even on a nine foot table because missing this shot is a 100% loss of game.

Then I figured it out. Why it took me so long is another story but the simple solution was to bank the six cross corner with no english and let the cue ball run to the head rail and back down slightly below the side pocket. This eliminated any possible cut on the striped ball and the speed of the crossing six was just fine.

Tom
 

LSJohn

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Much better defensive shot Frank.

Your shot doesn't position both balls on your opponents side of the table, nor does it give up any type of a offensive return shot. This would be an excellent option for those who want to protect the 2 to 1 advantage in the score. Hopefully some of the other players on the site can interpret this.

Dr. Bill
As your and Frank's opponent, am I crazy thinking I can straightback that 6 ball with 9 o'clock and put whitey near the middle of the top rail? (I think the 6 beats the CB path to avoid a kiss.)
 

LSJohn

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the simple solution was to bank the six cross corner with no english and let the cue ball run to the head rail and back down slightly below the side pocket.

Tom
That's what I wanted to do from the get-go, but I thought I might need a little inside to be sure I missed that corner pocket. Either that or over-cut it (to be sure I didn't under-cut it) which I think might make the speed of both balls match up better for pocket speed.
 

Tom Wirth

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That's what I wanted to do from the get-go, but I thought I might need a little inside to be sure I missed that corner pocket. Either that or over-cut it (to be sure I didn't under-cut it) which I think might make the speed of both balls match up better for pocket speed.
John, I hit the six with 12 o'clock english and pocketed the six with just more than pocket speed. The cue ball ran almost straight up and down the center of the table but slightly more toward my side. No risk of a kiss or scratch. It was so natural, I could not have asked for better.

Tom
 

LSJohn

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John, I hit the six with 12 o'clock english and pocketed the six with just more than pocket speed. The cue ball ran almost straight up and down the center of the table but slightly more toward my side. No risk of a kiss or scratch. It was so natural, I could not have asked for better.

Tom
Thanks. Hope I'd figure it out at the table.
 

gulfportdoc

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...
Then I figured it out. Why it took me so long is another story but the simple solution was to bank the six cross corner with no english and let the cue ball run to the head rail and back down slightly below the side pocket. This eliminated any possible cut on the striped ball and the speed of the crossing six was just fine. Tom
It sounds like the CB does come off the 6 pretty fast at that angle then. With the CB leave that you suggest, it wouldn't matter then whether the layout was on a 9' or 10' table. Good solution. The only very minor drawback is that with the CB leave closer to the 6, it's going to be easier for the opponent to answer.

So I think that is the key then: what are the natural speeds of the CB & 6 ball generated from that layout angle.

~Doc
 

wincardona

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It sounds like the CB does come off the 6 pretty fast at that angle then. With the CB leave that you suggest, it wouldn't matter then whether the layout was on a 9' or 10' table. Good solution. The only very minor drawback is that with the CB leave closer to the 6, it's going to be easier for the opponent to answer.

So I think that is the key then: what are the natural speeds of the CB & 6 ball generated from that layout angle.

~Doc
I set the shot up today and found that the angle was a little steep to comfortably play the shot the way its supposed to be played, however, it's laying very close to the angle I initially thought was available. If you were to move the 4ball 3" to the right or the cue ball 3" to the left then the angle would be perfect to execute the shot the way I explained. (Tip left english).

The main point in this discussion is whether or whether not the shot should be chosen if the angle allows. The main debate was the sell out factor, yes the option is still the best option by far if the angle is there.

Dr. Bill
 

beatle

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so the correct shot was to shoot the shot that was not in the diagram of where the balls were. and the shot some of the players suggested that was wrong is still wrong as the right shot was one that was not playable from that position but would be right if the balls were other than what was pictured.
 

LSJohn

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so the correct shot was to shoot the shot that was not in the diagram of where the balls were. and the shot some of the players suggested that was wrong is still wrong as the right shot was one that was not playable from that position but would be right if the balls were other than what was pictured.
Looks like you sorted it out even without the decoder ring. :D
 

Cowboy Dennis

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so the correct shot was to shoot the shot that was not in the diagram of where the balls were. and the shot some of the players suggested that was wrong is still wrong as the right shot was one that was not playable from that position but would be right if the balls were other than what was pictured.
Yeah but they're only setting it up and trying it on a 9' table but that's all one of them has ever played on.

Are you sure this means the wrong shot is still the wrong shot. I'm very confused.
 

lll

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so the correct shot was to shoot the shot that was not in the diagram of where the balls were. and the shot some of the players suggested that was wrong is still wrong as the right shot was one that was not playable from that position but would be right if the balls were other than what was pictured.
yeah you got it right.......:D
 

lll

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let me be the devils advocate and make another argument for the shot chosen and against the bank
..................
with the score 7-6 me
isnt it better for both balls to be up table if its not a lock to make the bank??????
 
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