Effren vs You - WWYD

1pwannabe

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You may want to look up the definition of "hail mary shot", you seem to be unclear as to what the phrase denotes.

I'm getting 10-7 from a better player, I don't care who it is. It must be an even game or I wouldn't be playing it.

I don't remember seeing what you would have done from here??? Oh well, it doesn't really matter does it?

Dennis
Guess you don't read the posts, just a few and then assume that we are all guilty of "group think".

I posted that I liked the 3/4 rail kick that Tom offered as his best choice.

And I'm a huge fan of Freddy, so you get big kudos on that count.
 

1pwannabe

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Reminds me

Reminds me

Reminds me of a game against Cliff, not that it was much of a game, where I took an intentional foul, sending whitey to the head rail to double him up, after a very strong break by him. Standard 1P old school shot, live to fight another day, etc. etc.

Well..that didn't work against Cliff, he has such phenomenal cue ball control that he immediately rolled whitey 3 or 4 inches forward to corner hook me behind his pocket blocking me from seeing anything. I had never seen that move before, very effective, brutal even. Needless to say, I lost that game 11 to -1.
 

androd

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Reminds me of a game against Cliff, not that it was much of a game, where I took an intentional foul, sending whitey to the head rail to double him up, after a very strong break by him. Standard 1P old school shot, live to fight another day, etc. etc.

Well..that didn't work against Cliff, he has such phenomenal cue ball control that he immediately rolled whitey 3 or 4 inches forward to corner hook me behind his pocket blocking me from seeing anything. I had never seen that move before, very effective, brutal even. Needless to say, I lost that game 11 to -1.
You took an intentional against Cliff ? That's humorous !
 

1pwannabe

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You were unlucky that he didn't make a ball on the break... then you'd have had a chance to do one ball better. :D
Oh, he did that plenty of times to me also. Next time we play, I'll ask for re-racks if HE makes a ball. :D
 

wincardona

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I get where you are coming from and you may be right on the best shot from here. But I think Rob has a pretty respectable game himself and if he is shooting it, it can be half bad...
Rob Melrose and Tom Wirth are two of the most knowledgeable players in the world today, imo. The options that were discussed in this thread are all viable options and if executed well they would be very productive. Personally, I like playing offensively from this position banking the 1ball in some fashion. If the one rail kick at the 7ball was laying well enough to use a center ball hit it would be a very tempting option, however, the 1ball is laying in the path of the natural kick which then lessens the appeal of the kick as one of the more appealing options.

Dr. Bill
 

1pwannabe

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question
in this layout
both banks
long rail /short rail /side rail
vs
the standard 3-4 rail corner 5 safety
come into the 7 off the side rail

why does one tend to leave a bank and not the other??
p.s. for me the corner 5 safety is more reliable and the one i would choose if given either/or
in spite of my prior post
I may have misunderstood the 1/2 rail kick shot, but I figured it meant going straight up and back and softly bumping behind the 7, which can scratch or bump it out far enough to leave a bank. Hitting it hard enough to kick it out from that steep angle is tough.

The 4 rail kick is a shot that comes up a lot and it comes off that side rail at a much better angle. If the speed is wrong you could still leave a bank, but I find it easier to control.
 

Tom Wirth

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Hi Dr. Bill, I look forward to seeing you and the rest of the guys, you too Mary, in Houston next month. I know we're all going to have a great time regardless of our individual efforts in the tournament.

Tom
 

Wayne

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YOU are playing Efren, and he's giving you 10-7. Ball score is 0-0. $100 a game.

He puts you in this simple trap, WWYD?

Very strange table with no sights (the round white dots) on the long rails. It makes it difficult to recreate the positions of the balls.

I set the shot up as closely as possible and the only shot that makes total sense to me is the bank on the one with a speed that leaves it at least within a diamond or so of your pocket (if you miss). A lot of focus on drawing the cueball close to the stack (ideally on the 3 ball leaving position to run the balls that are open but against or close to the 4 or 13 is fine also = big target).

By leaving the ball by your hole and the cueball in the stack your opponent now has to figure out a shot.

(When set up the one rail, three rail and four rail kick were not available, also, the bank angle makes it almost impossible to play the cueball behind the 12).

I would have definitely shot the bank against Efren with the 10-7 spot (this was the exact spot I requested last time he was in L.A. with races to 3 for $200, he refused but said he would if I bet a lot more, I passed because he was still the favorite at 10-7).

Set it up as closely as possible and I am sure a lot more people will agree that it may be their best shot.

(The person who banked the ball in the example hit it about twice as hard as he should have and he let the cueball go completely = horrible shot).
 
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wincardona

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All the shots that have been brought up are possible providing that the angles are doable, that's what we as teachers are confronted with, and i'm speaking on all the players on this site that have the understanding of the game and are wiling and interested enough to share them.

Thanks to you all.

Dr. Bill
 
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LSJohn

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Thanks for taking the time to set the shot up and reporting on your findings. I saw it the same way as you reported in regard to banking the 1ball as the choice of options. I myself set up the shot and banked the 1ball and attempted to play the cue ball behind the 12ball and found that the hit on the 1ball was not conducive to float under the 12ball unless you played to bank it short. Banking the 1ball short enables you to follow through the 1ball to the bottom rail slightly to the left of the top right pocket, however, scratching in the top pocket is of great concern and very possibly enough of a concern not to shoot the shot in that fashion. Banking the 1ball and drawing the cue ball back to the pack wasn't a problem if the bank is struck decently, which should be good enough to choose the option.

Thanks again Wayne, your interest and willingness to teach is impressive, and you have a great understanding of the game.

Dr. Bill
I don't know whether it is from listening to so much of your commentary or from reading your thoughts here (or just coincidence) but I pick the same shot you do , or just agree with it, a LOT more often than I do anyone else's, including Tom and Hacker even though I definitely buy your opinion of their analysis.

Whatever, thanks again for all of it. :)
 

wincardona

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Very strange table with no sights (the round white dots) on the long rails. It makes it difficult to recreate the positions of the balls.

I set the shot up as closely as possible and the only shot that makes total sense to me is the bank on the one with a speed that leaves it at least within a diamond or so of your pocket (if you miss). A lot of focus on drawing the cueball close to the stack (ideally on the 3 ball leaving position to run the balls that are open but against or close to the 4 or 13 is fine also = big target).

By leaving the ball by your hole and the cueball in the stack your opponent now has to figure out a shot.

(When set up the one rail, three rail and four rail kick were not available, also, the bank angle makes it almost impossible to play the cueball behind the 12).

I would have definitely shot the bank against Efren with the 10-7 spot (this was the exact spot I requested last time he was in L.A. with races to 3 for $200, he refused but said he would if I bet a lot more, I passed because he was still the favorite at 10-7).

Set it up as closely as possible and I am sure a lot more people will agree that it may be their best shot.

(The person who banked the ball in the example hit it about twice as hard as he should have and he let the cueball go completely = horrible shot).
Thanks for taking the time to set the shot up and reporting on your findings. I saw it the same way as you reported in regard to banking the 1ball as the choice of options. I myself set up the shot and banked the 1ball and attempted to play the cue ball behind the 12ball and found that the hit on the 1ball was not conducive to float under the 12ball unless you played to bank it short. Banking the 1ball short enables you to follow through the 1ball to the bottom rail slightly to the left of the top right pocket, however, scratching in the top pocket is of great concern and very possibly enough of a concern not to shoot the shot in that fashion. Banking the 1ball and drawing the cue ball back to the pack wasn't a problem if the bank is struck decently, which should be good enough to choose the option.

Thanks again Wayne, your interest and willingness to teach is impressive, and you have a great understanding of the game.

Dr. Bill
 

One pocket Smitty

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Bank the 1, draw whitey toward the stack. If I'm gonna shoot a hope shot against this guy it's gonna be offensive.
My exact thoughts too, John. Chances of pulling off that long rail safe are slim at least the bank on the 1 has better odds.--Smitty
 

Wayne

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Nov 26, 2004
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Thanks for taking the time to set the shot up and reporting on your findings. I saw it the same way as you reported in regard to banking the 1ball as the choice of options. I myself set up the shot and banked the 1ball and attempted to play the cue ball behind the 12ball and found that the hit on the 1ball was not conducive to float under the 12ball unless you played to bank it short. Banking the 1ball short enables you to follow through the 1ball to the bottom rail slightly to the left of the top right pocket, however, scratching in the top pocket is of great concern and very possibly enough of a concern not to shoot the shot in that fashion. Banking the 1ball and drawing the cue ball back to the pack wasn't a problem if the bank is struck decently, which should be good enough to choose the option.

Thanks again Wayne, your interest and willingness to teach is impressive, and you have a great understanding of the game.

Dr. Bill
Thanks Bill. I had the same problem with hiding the cueball behind the 12, the first try was a disaster sell out, the 2nd a scratch, the 3rd cutting the 1 short left a sell out again. I gave it up after that as not workable.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Good to see the obviously bad shots have been ruled out for most people, too bad nobody learned anything from this layout.

Dennis
 

LSJohn

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Dennis --

Maybe you didn't mean it this way, hopefully not. It can be hard to tell in writing sometimes how words come across.

In any case, do you realize what a jackass this comment makes you sound like?

Cory
That was my first reaction too, but I re-thought it.

It's quite true that a B player is more likely to learn something new than an A player, and that may be all Dennis had in mind.
 
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