Diamond System

mr3cushion

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Gus Copulus was generally regarded as the man who invented or initially refined the diamond system.

Beard
Fred; hate to correct you, but, Clarence Jackson is the initial author of the,"Diamond System". It was later refined by, Johnny Layton, Gus Copulus was a fine player and system player of his era.

I have hesitated to post on this thread for, I know it would get s**t on by the resident, "claim jumper". The diamond system that is was published in Willie Hoppe's book is NOT the same system used by, "Modern" day players. The cue ball numbers and returns are different, because the rubber used back then was a NATURAL rubber, it played longer.

Two last thoughts on this subject, the proper play in "Modern" 3 cushion billiards, is to try to control ALL 3 balls, this is almost impossible to achieve trying to make the cue ball hit an exact point on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd cushions, maybe 1 out of a 1000 shots come up where this can be done playing position.

Next, the VERY last shot a professional players wants to attempt is a bank shot, the margin of error for this is FAR less then striking an object ball first...hit, stroke,speed,english, etc.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

P.S. Any members that would like the skinny on the "DS", feel free to PM me!
 

JAM

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This is an extremely interesting thread. I'm just a rail-lurker, I guess, as I have nothing to contribute, but I am learning. Thanks to all who contributed the great content. :)

That Donald Duck video is so darn cute! I love that, Steve! :cool:
 

lfigueroa

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Lou, That was my first thought when Jennie posed the question.

Enjoy your time basking in paradise.

Tom

Hey, Tom, how's it gong? I haven't seen you and your lovely wife at any tournaments recently.

And, I is enjoying. Up on the balcony again with a nice bottle of wine, some cheese and crackers, and a Cohiba Piramedes I'm about to fire up :)

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

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You are right on target, Doc.
IMO the easiest way to play three rails is to play a parallel system.
From one corner find the other corner on the same end of the table via three rails using running english and pocket speed. This line sometimes changes from table to table. Now you can use parallels to find the same corner depending on the cue ball position. You can also play longer or shorter angles using the same system. As an example: Aim one diamond longer and the cue ball should return one diamond long of the corner. None of this is very precise but it is fairly accurate and doesn't require all the math of other systems.

One thing; You will need to use two distinctly different first rail targets for kicks verses shots on object balls. This is due to the amount of english which is applied directly to the cue ball verses the amount of english which is transferred to an object ball from the cue ball.

I understand there are several methods for playing these shots. I'm not suggesting this method is the best. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It is just the way I have done things, and it has worked well enough for me over the years.

Tom

I like the parallel system too. There's another good one, don't even know if it has a name, where you just pick a spot on the rail where you're sure the ball will come in short and then move to a spot where the ball will come in too long (just judging by experience and feel) and keep gong back and forth till you don't feel it'd be too short or too long. It sounds like it'd take time but it only takes seconds to do. Maybe it's called the Goldilocks System.

Lou Figueroa
 

Tom Wirth

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I like the parallel system too. There's another good one, don't even know if it has a name, where you just pick a spot on the rail where you're sure the ball will come in short and then move to a spot where the ball will come in too long (just judging by experience and feel) and keep gong back and forth till you don't feel it'd be too short or too long. It sounds like it'd take time but it only takes seconds to do. Maybe it's called the Goldilocks System.

Lou Figueroa
Yeah Lou,
I gave up on the DCC after the first six years. It's a great tournament but I didn't like the pay out system. I haven't heard if it has changed for the better. If it has I might consider a come back.

I like your system. I have a few friends who play billiards and they use a system somewhat like what you are describing. They find where the corner will be for there shot and then make an adjustment depending on whether they want to play long or short from that angle. I've used it too and it works pretty well.

BTW I'm glad that you are still playing... I like your game. You play hard and fair and don't give up anything without a fight.

Tom
 

lfigueroa

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Yeah Lou,
I gave up on the DCC after the first six years. It's a great tournament but I didn't like the pay out system. I haven't heard if it has changed for the better. If it has I might consider a come back.

I like your system. I have a few friends who play billiards and they use a system somewhat like what you are describing. They find where the corner will be for there shot and then make an adjustment depending on whether they want to play long or short from that angle. I've used it too and it works pretty well.

BTW I'm glad that you are still playing... I like your game. You play hard and fair and don't give up anything without a fight.

Tom

Well, I think everyone knows your game is tough as nails, Tom. Thanks for the kind words.

As to the DCC payouts, I hear you. I was in one of the tournament rooms this year warming up for the 1pocket and a player whose name you'd recognize was practicing a few tables down relating his payout for finishing in the low single digits and collecting less than $2000. After fighting his way through a 350+ field and deducting entry fees and expenses, it wasn't much. Basically, if you can't do it for yucks or bragging rights, it's a poor investment.

Lou Figueroa
in for the yucks
 

tylerdurden

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I am not so sure about this "parallel" method. I find it does not work (for me) both theoretically, and on the table. How can you just take a parallel and expect them to converge at one point??

I have found use in distant point systems though; I never really used it in a game, but if I want some accuracy when messing around with practice 3 rail kicks, it seems to work well.

I started getting into these 3 rail systems for a while, but I found them kinda fruitless, so I gave it up. The only real use I did get out of it was we were all playing this game for a while where you rack up a full rack and put the 8 in the middle, and you'd get a certain number of 3 rail kicks to pocket the 8 in a predetermined hole. Fun game. As mentioned, the key is to find what takes you to a corner from the opposite side of the table and adjust from there.
 

tylerdurden

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.....it's a poor investment.
I don't know how anybody does it, I really don't. IF you have any kids, girlfriend, health issue, anything.... the whole "model" for being a pool player flies right out the window. IT is basically a system where one is compelled to live rent and girl friend free, and even then they will just barely be able to scrape by without ever indulging in anything. And if you do indulge you'll be sleeping on some cold pavement and waking up with morning dew in your hair.
 

lfigueroa

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I am not so sure about this "parallel" method. I find it does not work (for me) both theoretically, and on the table. How can you just take a parallel and expect them to converge at one point??

I have found use in distant point systems though; I never really used it in a game, but if I want some accuracy when messing around with practice 3 rail kicks, it seems to work well.

I started getting into these 3 rail systems for a while, but I found them kinda fruitless, so I gave it up. The only real use I did get out of it was we were all playing this game for a while where you rack up a full rack and put the 8 in the middle, and you'd get a certain number of 3 rail kicks to pocket the 8 in a predetermined hole. Fun game. As mentioned, the key is to find what takes you to a corner from the opposite side of the table and adjust from there.

The parallel system works pretty good for three rail kicks to or near the corner pocket. The "distance point" or "spot on the wall" system is also a good one if you have around 8 - 10' to your spot. I used it once in front of a crowd against Efren in the US Open and got a nice round of applause for escaping the death trap he'd put me in.

Lou Figueroa
 

naji

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Can somebody explain it? I'd imagine you would have to be able to bank pretty good if you're playing one pocket with those short rails, long rails, two rails, three rails, et cetera.

I also remember Earl Strickland telling me at the 2004 Derby City Classic in Louisville that he was having trouble in the banks tournament because the Diamond tables bank short, so I assume that meant he had trouble adjusting to the equipment.

Some players prefer Gold Crowns, and that's the table I remember as being the best, but today it seems like most prefer the Diamond tables.

Well, I'd love to read a concise description of the diamond system and how it relates to banking balls. Hopefully, other readers will benefit from this thread, unless I'm the only one who doesn't understand the diamond system. ::eek:

Oh, I do realize that the Diamond table is a different "diamond" than the diamond system. Reminds me of my recent visit to the dentist. After his thorough examination of all my gums and then upon hearing the bad news, I told him that I think my new pool nickname should be "Pockets." :lol
Hi JAM,
Unfortunately all systems for banks are not consistent mainly due to how hard you hit the bank, draw shot, follow, with english no english. Many tell you it is "feel" it is true, but do not explain well.. the feel actually is judging OB direction after it hits the rail. Five major factors you have to consider how far OB from rail, what angle it is going in, OB/CB cut angle of the shot, and how hard it is hit, finally if you apply LH or RH spin on CB. When OB hits the rail at an angle (i'd say more than 20 degrees) the rail puts counter clock wise spin (CCW), the type of english that make rebound angle bigger, this english usually is retained and at times increase depending on 2nd, 3rd, 4th angle of the following rails it hits (example three rail shot famous one pocket shot). At times you may not notice change for 1st rail, this is because OB hit 1st rail hard and caused cushion deformation and makes angle seem as if no english, but it appears on following rails.
How hard you hit, how soft all have different out come therefor feel (or i call it experience) is the rule when it comes to banks and kicks, this is the biggest reason why one rail banks are hit so hard to have consistent deformation of rail, and control some english shots. What adds oil to the fire is each table plays different.
 

Drop Pocket

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Jul 17, 2004
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There are all kinds of diamond systems. The late Walt Harris published an entire series of books on various diamond systems, mostly for 3C players, but many with applicability to pool.

DS are for those that want to try and put some level of mathematical precision to the endeavors of banking and kicking. But the truth of the matter is that most players, other than for a few "pet shots," shoot their banks and kicks by feel, only using the diamonds on the table for reference points. Hoppe's book contains all kinds of systems, diagrams and formulas. In "McGoorty" the main character tells of how he came across Hoppe one morning before a tournament experimenting with the systems in his own book, the truth being that the systems had been developed by other players and Hoppe was not a system player.

So there is no "diamond system." Just a lot of systems that use the diamonds.

Lou Figueroa
Hoppe also said: "You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke."
 

JAM

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Hi JAM,
Unfortunately all systems for banks are not consistent mainly due to how hard you hit the bank, draw shot, follow, with english no english. Many tell you it is "feel" it is true, but do not explain well.. the feel actually is judging OB direction after it hits the rail. Five major factors you have to consider how far OB from rail, what angle it is going in, OB/CB cut angle of the shot, and how hard it is hit, finally if you apply LH or RH spin on CB. When OB hits the rail at an angle (i'd say more than 20 degrees) the rail puts counter clock wise spin (CCW), the type of english that make rebound angle bigger, this english usually is retained and at times increase depending on 2nd, 3rd, 4th angle of the following rails it hits (example three rail shot famous one pocket shot). At times you may not notice change for 1st rail, this is because OB hit 1st rail hard and caused cushion deformation and makes angle seem as if no english, but it appears on following rails.
How hard you hit, how soft all have different out come therefor feel (or i call it experience) is the rule when it comes to banks and kicks, this is the biggest reason why one rail banks are hit so hard to have consistent deformation of rail, and control some english shots. What adds oil to the fire is each table plays different.
Thanks for the great information, Naji! I appreciate your sharing. :)
 
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