Daulton vs. Mizerak 1992 L.O.P.

wincardona

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Bank the 11 straight back and draw the cue ball to the foot rail for a relatively easy free shot. Shannon should make it at least 3 out of 4. But he shouldn't just settle for cinching the 11 ball, he should be thinking about getting out.

If you needed a bunch you would draw the ball with left hand english all the way to the foot rail and then back up behind the other balls. Being that close to the 11 puts this shot in range. That's a little bit of a stretch, even for a young Daulton. But if anyone would try it you're looking at him.

Beard
In your post you described two extremes, 'cinching a shot' and 'over stretching with a shot.' That's good information for the scenario they both fit, but what would you do in this situation?

Dr. Bill
 

TheClamp

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In your post you described two extremes, 'cinching a shot' and 'over stretching with a shot.' That's good information for the scenario they both fit, but what would you do in this situation?

Dr. Bill
Wow my Jedi knowledge must be increasing as for once most of you- including you Dr. Bill, generally agree with my shot choice.

As far as cinching VS stretching it, I believe that cinching the 11 unlocks an easy out considering there are 3 available balls after the 11 is made, so basically you just have to not F**k up the 11 bank and the table will provide the rest. And I would say considering Shannon's banking ability that there are ten to one adds of him getting out by starting with that shot.:cool:
 

fred bentivegna

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Depends

Depends

In your post you described two extremes, 'cinching a shot' and 'over stretching with a shot.' That's good information for the scenario they both fit, but what would you do in this situation?

Dr. Bill
It depends, like I said. If I thought I was in good stroke I would draw all the way back and out behind the balls for out. (as I have done many times with this same shot)
If I felt just a little shaky I would just draw back to the foot rail and try and cinch the 11 ball bank and go from there.

I would need to be dumping, no matter how I felt if I didnt bank the 11 and draw the ball -- somewhere.

Beard
 

timdog24

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At that time, Shannon was playing -- and banking -- with so much confidence, I can't see him doing anything but banking the 11. I envision him smoking it and drawing back for the bank on the 10-ball next. When he banks the 10 he can drift over to finish up with a straight in shot on the 13.
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I would play it exactly the way Steve and the Beard mentioned. If these are forgiving pockets, imo banking and drawing make it almost a hanger- certainly for Shannon. Also playing it this way, every shot is 100% free. Free bank on the 11, free bank on the 10, free shot on the 13.
Banking, sticking and getting good position on the 10 - doesn't look like it's laying ideal for that.
 

wincardona

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Im not so sure that an offensive shot is the way to go here. With Miz needing 4 balls any miss could allow him the possibility of getting out. Im thinking of either 3 railing the the 3 ball around towards my side pocket and leaving the cue ball on the bottom rail or 2 railing the 13 ball over to my side rail and leaving the cue ball by his pocket. With either of these shots I move those balls to favor me and not him. I think I like the 2 rail shot better. Keith
It all depends on the players make% on the 11 ball bank. Allow me to explain. This position can go either way, depending on how well the 11 ball is hit. The reason that is, is because whether the bank is made or missed the player shooting the next shot will have a good bank for his pocket. So with this understanding you need to pocket the bank at least 60% of the time for it to be a good option. Why 60% you ask? Because of the score, and the move you will lose if you shoot the bank and miss. Your ahead by one ball and if you play any of Sappo's shots you will also have the better position. That has to be worth something, right? So if you decide to shoot the 11 ball bank, that's the price your paying for it. If the shooter figures to make this bank only 50% to 55% of the time, or less, he should choose another option.

By the way, choosing the option of banking the 11 ball and sticking, now becomes more appealing because if you miss the bank you don't lose the move, nor will you give up a shot.:D
So if you feel that you won't make this bank 55% of the time banking it with speed, you must bank and stick.;)

Dr. Bill
 
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TheClamp

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I would play it exactly the way Steve and the Beard mentioned. If these are forgiving pockets, imo banking and drawing make it almost a hanger- certainly for Shannon. why on earth would you draw when its completely unnecessary. IMO...... its much harder to be precise with draw than it is with kill or drag. Also playing it this way, every shot is 100% free. Free bank on the 11, free bank on the 10, free shot on the 13. this downright puzzles me. When you could set yourself up for near strait-in on the 10 by killing it, then 13 (or 3).... why set up for a bank....... not seeing the logic because the shot on the 11 could not set you up better for the 10 if you use a natural poke
Banking, sticking and getting good position on the 10 - doesn't look like it's laying ideal for that.
its perfect !!!!
 

NH Steve

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its perfect !!!!
When I looked at the table pic I wasn't certain that the 10 and 13 were doubled up towards Miz's pocket. If the 10 did pass the 13 to Miz's hole you couldn't play it that way, right?
 

lll

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When I looked at the table pic I wasn't certain that the 10 and 13 were doubled up towards Miz's pocket. If the 10 did pass the 13 to Miz's hole you couldn't play it that way, right?
steve when i drew it up where the yellow arrow stops (actually id probably have the cue ball drift alittle towards the middle of the table to make the cut on the 10 easier) is after the first shot (banking the 11) it doubles up the miz(as i saw it) so it had its own non sell out component in it. if the 2 balls werent doubled up id have to be real sure id make it before playing it that way
credit goes to clamp for posting the idea of the shot first
mm1.jpg
 

fred bentivegna

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Draw or easy stop ball.

Draw or easy stop ball.

its perfect !!!!
Actually, most bank pool players would prefer a full stroke draw on a straight, full hit bank than to try and hit it with a controlled stop stroke at pocket speed.

Alex Pagalion (sp) was lamenting this exact same thing at DCC. He was practicing a very similar shot with not so good results when he hit the straight back bank pocket speed. He asked me why it is so easy for him to whack the ball hard, straight back into the pocket and yet still have so little success when he had to stop the ball and hit it pocket speed.
I had an answer for him but he wasnt really seeking an answer from anyone. He was more or less, just talking out loud. Probably didnt think there was a practical answer available.


Beard
 

wincardona

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It all depends on the players make% on the 11 ball bank. Allow me to explain. This position can go either way, depending on how well the 11 ball is hit. The reason that is, is because whether the bank is made or missed the player shooting the next shot will have a good bank for his pocket. So with this understanding you need to pocket the bank at least 60% of the time for it to be a good option. Why 60% you ask? Because of the score, and the move you will lose if you shoot the bank and miss. Your ahead by one ball and if you play any of Sappo's shots you will also have the better position. That has to be worth something, right? So if you decide to shoot the 11 ball bank, that's the price your paying for it. If the shooter figures to make this bank only 50% to 55% of the time, or less, he should choose another option.

By the way, choosing the option of banking the 11 ball and sticking, now becomes more appealing because if you miss the bank you don't lose the move, nor will you give up a shot.:D
So if you feel that you won't make this bank 55% of the time banking it with speed, you must bank and stick.;)

Dr. Bill
The two ways of playing the bank on the 11 ball are very close in terms of the correct shot. This is based off of the make % at 40% with the bank and stick, as opposed to the make % of 70% with the bank and draw.

If a player can make the bank and draw shot 7 out of 10 times I figure that he'll win close to 7 out of 10 games, 6.75 games out of 10, the way I figure.

If a player can make the bank and stick shot 4 out of 10 times i figure he'll also win close to 7 out of 10 games 6.80 games out of 10 the way I figure.

I used a formula based on my opinion of how often a player will win after shooting both shots.

These percentages are imo for a good player, the weaker the player the more the bank and stick option is the correct shot.

I would like to add that these percentages are purely speculative, because of all the uncertainties that would follow both shots.

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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The two ways of playing the bank on the 11 ball are very close in terms of the correct shot. This is based off of the make % at 40% with the bank and stick, as opposed to the make % of 70% with the bank and draw. The bank and stick option should be hit with pocket speed.

If a player can make the bank and draw shot 7 out of 10 times I figure that he'll win close to 7 out of 10 games, 6.75 games out of 10, the way I figure.

If a player can make the bank and stick shot 4 out of 10 times i figure he'll also win close to 7 out of 10 games 6.80 games out of 10 the way I figure.

I used a formula based on my opinion of how often a player will win after shooting both shots.

These percentages are imo for a good player, the weaker the player the more the bank and stick option is the correct shot.
I would like to add that these percentages are purely speculative, because of all the uncertainties that would follow both shots.
For a player like the Hacker the bank and draw could possibly be a better option than the bank and stick. But for a player like the Ghost..who doesn't strike balls as well as the Hacker, the bank and stick would be the better option. The bank and stick for myself would also be the better option, the way I figured it.

An important point that should not be overlooked when choosing options is..the position you leave your opponent in, if missed. Too often this consideration is not given the respect it should, and as a result we shoot the weaker of the options. What happens is we get this "tunnel vision" feel about a shot and don't give the options the attention they deserve.

Dr. Bill
 
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onepockethacker

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For a player like the Hacker the bank and draw could possibly be a better option than the bank and stick. But for a player like the Ghost..who doesn't strike balls as well as the Hacker, the bank and stick would be the better option. The bank and stick for myself would also be the better option, the way I figured it.

An important point that should not be overlooked when choosing options is..the position you leave your opponent in, if missed. Too often this consideration is not given the respect it should, and as a result we shoot the weaker of the options. What happens is we get this "tunnel vision" feel about a shot and don't give the options the attention they deserve.

Dr. Bill
You made some good points there. For myself it would depend how i am playing and how i feel. If im hitting them with confidence im banking and drawing. If not im banking and sticking. Your point on "tunnel vision" is HUGE. Just like when people get tunnel vision on a shot and they see an easy bank and they are so excited about the easy bank that they dont realize that they are bridging over a ball that they are straight in on their hole. The same thing as you say happens with analyzing all the options and their results. People jump on the first thing that looks good and if they would have taken more time they would have found a better option. I have done it myself alot of times. I shoot a shot and as im walking away from the table i say to myself shit i should of shot so an so.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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It depends, like I said. If I thought I was in good stroke I would draw all the way back and out behind the balls for out. (as I have done many times with this same shot)


Beard
Only knowledgeable bank-players know the advantages of hitting that shot firm, with draw & coming to the end-rail and up behind the balls. On a generous table that accepted that bank, at speed, it's one of my favorite shots in that spot.

Shannon shot it slightly different though. He came up for the 10 ball.

SD1.jpg

SD2.jpg

He went 3 rails for shapes on the ball on the spot, shot it and played shapes for the 13 thinking he needed it. He didn't.

CapturedPicture_13.Jpeg
 

fred bentivegna

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Needed english

Needed english

Only knowledgeable bank-players know the advantages of hitting that shot firm, with draw & coming to the end-rail and up behind the balls. On a generous table that accepted that bank, at speed, it's one of my favorite shots in that spot.

Shannon shot it slightly different though. He came up for the 10 ball.

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He went 3 rails for shapes on the ball on the spot, shot it and played shapes for the 13 thinking he needed it. He didn't.

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Shannon apparently hit it with center axis draw. I am comfortable with using left hand draw so that the cue ball will break to the right behind those balls after contacting the rail.

Beard
 

wincardona

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Only knowledgeable bank-players know the advantages of hitting that shot firm, with draw & coming to the end-rail and up behind the balls. On a generous table that accepted that bank, at speed, it's one of my favorite shots in that spot.

Shannon shot it slightly different though. He came up for the 10 ball.

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View attachment 5632

He went 3 rails for shapes on the ball on the spot, shot it and played shapes for the 13 thinking he needed it. He didn't.

View attachment 5633
Never a doubt, that's the way he was thinking before he shot the bank. I bet he could make that bank 9 out of 10 times. I don't see anything wrong with hitting the shot with center draw, no surprises using center draw.

Plus it doesn't hurt when you have a stroke like Daulton, drawing the ball was never a problem for him.

Dr. Bill
 

fred bentivegna

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Picking at the minutia

Picking at the minutia

Never a doubt, that's the way he was thinking before he shot the bank. I bet he could make that bank 9 out of 10 times. I don't see anything wrong with hitting the shot with center draw, no surprises using center draw.

Plus it doesn't hurt when you have a stroke like Daulton, drawing the ball was never a problem for him.

Dr. Bill
I never said there was anything wrong with using center draw. Other than that that doesnt take you behind the balls like you would be if you used a tip of left draw. The only surprise you will get doing that, is the surprise on your opponents face when you fall perfect and run out.

Being a foot away from the object ball makes using a tip of english no problem. PLUS, using 1 tip of reverse, as our good pal John Brumback will confirm, makes the pocket bigger (by changing to a better entrance angle, AND by having the correct rotation on the object ball; in case it touches a cushion the pocket will still accept the ball.

Beard
 

NH Steve

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This reminds me of a match between Bugs and young Shannon -- maybe at this same tournament -- were Bugs at some point after fading a barrage of Daulton game-breaking shots, says something like, "Somebody better call the fire department to cool this guy off!"

Thanks for posting, lll.
 

wincardona

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I never said there was anything wrong with using center draw. Other than that that doesnt take you behind the balls like you would be if you used a tip of left draw. The only surprise you will get doing that, is the surprise on your opponents face when you fall perfect and run out.

Being a foot away from the object ball makes using a tip of english no problem. PLUS, using 1 tip of reverse, as our good pal John Brumback will confirm, makes the pocket bigger (by changing to a better entrance angle, AND by having the correct rotation on the object ball; in case it touches a cushion the pocket will still accept the ball.

Beard
You make a lot of good points with everything you say with the exception of 1 tip of english? I believe you're going to need more than 1 tip of english to ensure you of safely reaching your final position with the cue ball. The cue ball has to travel a long way before it hits the bottom rail, 1 tip of english will not be enough to keep it turning in a positive direction. Daulton obviously thought that by using center draw he would end up approximately where he did, no need to fool with changing the natural course of the cue ball, the way he saw it.

Dr. Bill
 

fred bentivegna

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45th time

45th time

You make a lot of good points with everything you say with the exception of 1 tip of english? I believe you're going to need more than 1 tip of english to ensure you of safely reaching your final position with the cue ball. The cue ball has to travel a long way before it hits the bottom rail, 1 tip of english will not be enough to keep it turning in a positive direction. Daulton obviously thought that by using center draw he would end up approximately where he did, no need to fool with changing the natural course of the cue ball, the way he saw it.

Dr. Bill
This is the 45th straight time that I was wrong in my shot advice -- according to you. Again, I say amazing.

Defending even the most minute suggestion is getting tiresome. Firstly, one tip of english is plenty. More than 1 tip is going to take away from the amount of draw you need (which is plenty, obviously).

Secondly, it is NOT a well know fact but still a true one, that english remains on an object ball or cue ball much, much more than most people would expect. It stays on in a form of latent energy.
That is why an object ball at the end of its journey as a softly hit ball will turn slightly in either direction, depending on what english was on the ball. I spent a whole chapter on this subject in my first book. I also demonstrated it dramatically on bank shots at the seminar I held at DCC with Danny Di and John Brumback.

I had originally decided to let this next point go, it doesnt serve much of a purpose except to be contentious. But now I am going to delve into the minutiae myself.
Thirdly, based on the track of Shannon's cue ball traveling so straight back up the table, I am inclined to think that he didnt use center axis draw at
all, but instead had a tip of right hand english on the cue ball.

Any cut, even slightly to the left, on the bank would put some left hand english on the cue ball and even with center axis draw the cue ball would have broke more to the right coming off of the foot rail. Thats why I contend that unless he cut the object ball slightly to the right, he would have had to put on right hand english along with the draw.

Beard
 

NH Steve

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Daulton is up 5-4 this game and it's his shot. What would you do?


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Dennis, I notice in this month's Billiard Digest, this same shot is their featured Stroke of Genius".

The young Shannon was something to see, with his fearless play -- sometimes seemingly reckless, yet either he made the shots or got the caroms that he played for nearly every time. A very exciting style of play for sure.
 
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