Daulton vs. Joyner 2002 D.C.C.

Cowboy Dennis

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Well, a couple of you called the shot but not the cueball. Good job. The 14 & 15 came so close to kissing near the long rail that every time I watch it I still think they are going to kiss. It was a helluva shot.

Shannon's Shot.jpg

Here's how he left it for Cliff:

Shannon's Leave.Jpeg
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Well, a couple of you called the shot but not the cueball. Good job. The 14 & 15 came so close to kissing near the long rail that every time I watch it I still think they are going to kiss. It was a helluva shot.

View attachment 1983

Here's how he left it for Cliff:

View attachment 1984
The shot that Shannon chose was somewhat of a natural, but as I mentioned earlier that the position of the 14 ball was crucial, not only in controlling the 15 ball but also in dictating where the cue ball will go if the shot is hit well. It turned out that Shannon had to CUT the 15 ball to his left slightly to get the direction needed on the 15 ball after caroming off the 14 ball, which altered the course of the cue ball, in reference to Almanza's post#12.

The main point here that should be learned is, if a shot is on, and your able to recognize it, don't be afraid to shoot it. This is an example of the value in developing a feel for all types of shots. The key word here is ...recognize.. The more you become familiar with different types of shots will enable you to get over the hurdle of believing in what you do.

Trust me,i'm a doctor:D

Billy I.
 

CaliRed

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wincardona said:
The shot that Shannon chose was somewhat of a natural, but as I mentioned earlier that the position of the 14 ball was crucial, not only in controlling the 15 ball but also in dictating where the cue ball will go if the shot is hit well. It turned out that Shannon had to CUT the 15 ball to his left slightly to get the direction needed on the 15 ball after caroming off the 14 ball, which altered the course of the cue ball, in reference to Almanza's post#12.

The main point here that should be learned is, if a shot is on, and your able to recognize it, don't be afraid to shoot it. This is an example of the value in developing a feel for all types of shots. The key word here is ...recognize.. The more you become familiar with different types of shots will enable you to get over the hurdle of believing in what you do.

Trust me,i'm a doctor:D

Billy I.
I know your a fricking doctor and all, but I have said this before and I'll say it again... you are one helluva natural teacher too.:)
 

stljohnny

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Ok Johnny....you got me - you're a good salesman - you lay it down pretty good....the gullible, over-the-hill Ghost will try you some even-up...:)

- Ghost
haha, i'd be happy to just watch you and some other big guns play. if i played as well as i talk about playing... man i'd be one happy camper. i just can't execute what i see most of the time. there's video, don't make me embarrass myself further by posting the links. ;)
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Well, a couple of you called the shot but not the cueball. Good job. The 14 & 15 came so close to kissing near the long rail that every time I watch it I still think they are going to kiss. It was a helluva shot.

View attachment 1983

Here's how he left it for Cliff:

View attachment 1984
Stop, this is even a more interesting situation that Joyner is confronted with.:confused: Should he bank at his out ball, or should he pocket the ball in Shannon's pocket and go from there?

I think I remember this game and had strong feelings on what HIS choice should be. What would you do? And your answer should be based on your skills as a player. I debated his choice with a lot of good players and was disapointed with their answer. :confused:

I can break his decision down using math and give you an approximate win % for a player with his skills. Shooting either shot.

Even though there are uncertainties involved, they aren't so clouded not to give a fairly close guesstimation of the %perc. to succeed.:D

Billy I.
 

gulfportdoc

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wincardona said:
Stop, this is even a more interesting situation that Joyner is confronted with.:confused: Should he bank at his out ball, or should he pocket the ball in Shannon's pocket and go from there?

I think I remember this game and had strong feelings on what HIS choice should be. What would you do? And your answer should be based on your skills as a player. I debated his choice with a lot of good players and was disapointed with their answer. :confused:
Following the hanging ball in is no good. That would leave Shannon an easy shot on the 14, with easy position for the cross-corner on the back spotted ball.

Cliff could billiard the hanging ball in, thereby leaving the 14 on his side of the table. Then they'd both need one.

OR he could simply bank the 14 into his own hole. The bank lays good, except for being a little close to the rail, and Cliff is a good banker. I imagine that is the shot he took.

Doc
 

wincardona

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gulfportdoc said:
Following the hanging ball in is no good. That would leave Shannon an easy shot on the 14, with easy position for the cross-corner on the back spotted ball.

Cliff could billiard the hanging ball in, thereby leaving the 14 on his side of the table. Then they'd both need one.

OR he could simply bank the 14 into his own hole. The bank lays good, except for being a little close to the rail, and Cliff is a good banker. I imagine that is the shot he took.

Doc
Art, you're confusing me again, why would he follow the ball in when all he needs to do is pocket the ball and leave Shannon in a fairly tough spot? Who said anything about following the ball in? That's suicidal!!

There are only two options, you either bank at your out ball, or pocket the ball in Shannon's pocket and you both need one. There aren't any more viable options.

The last time we had this type of a discussion you said that you got the pockets mixed up, how can you explain this?? How old are you again?;)

Billy I.
 

wincardona

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Who cares???

Who cares???

wincardona said:
Stop, this is even a more interesting situation that Joyner is confronted with.:confused: Should he bank at his out ball, or should he pocket the ball in Shannon's pocket and go from there?

I think I remember this game and had strong feelings on what HIS choice should be. What would you do? And your answer should be based on your skills as a player. I debated his choice with a lot of good players and was disapointed with their answer. :confused:

I can break his decision down using math and give you an approximate win % for a player with his skills. Shooting either shot.

Even though there are uncertainties involved, they aren't so clouded not to give a fairly close guesstimation of the %perc. to succeed.

Billy I.[

I talked to quite a few excellent players, Varner being one of them. I was surprised to hear what they said they would do. Diliberto was another player I talked to, and they both said that they would of pocketed the ball in Shannon's pocket and played for one. I not only think that it was the wrong choice, but a terrible one considering the skills of a player like Joyner. Diliberto vehemently opposed my choice of banking game ball, when I on the other hand thought that it was CLEARLY the correct shot. And today I feel as adamant about my choice as I did then.

By pocketing the ball in Shannons pocket you rate to be a slight favorite at best, providing Shannon doesn't 3 rail the ball into his pocket. Shannon will jack up and shoot that shot as good as anyone in the world, he's the best shooting those type of shots. But it's unfair to say that that's a good option when in fact it may be, even for a lesser player. Shoot it a few times and make your own conclusion.

Lets say that your opponent doesn't shoot the 3 railer and you are an 11/10 favorite to pocket the ball instead of banking it, that means that you will win 11 out of 21 games. Right?

Now lets say that this same situation shows itself 20 times, so to figure out what the odds are for you to win shooting at the bank you first must guesstimate how many times you rate to pocket the bank out of 20 times. I shot the bank 20 times and made it 7 times, hung it up 7 times left no return shot 3 times and sold out a possible bank 3 times. I know it's unfair to make a judgement on a player shooting the same shot 20 straight times, because he's going to school each time he shoots it.;) So I will be more than fair and do the math based on what I feel is an approximate % of the possibilities.

A good player rates to pocket the bank 5 out of 20 times..up 5 games

A good player rates to hang the ball 5 times making him a 2/1 fav. to win those games when he hangs the ball 5 times 66.66%=up 3.33 games + 5 games for a total win % in game of 8.33 games won out of 10 games.

A good player rates to safe his opponent 6 times off a miss for a + 3 games giving him a games won % of 11.33 games won out of 16 games played.

A good player rates to sell out a possible return bank 4 times out of 20 games which I will reward to his opponent all 4 games. giving Joyner 0 games won for a total of 11.33 games won against 8.67 games lost. Which is approximately a 13/10 favorite.

The odds are based off of top players.

Bottom line shooting the bank you're a 13/10 favorite

Pocketing the ball in Shannon's pocket you're a 11/10 favorite.

Sounds like a lot of stuff that we need not know, but I was bored and thought that a few might be interested.:)

I'm hungry now so out to dinner, see ya later.:)

Billy I.
 

jrhendy

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Ok Johnny....you got me - you're a good salesman - you lay it down pretty good....the gullible, over-the-hill Ghost will try you some even-up...:)

- Ghost
You are not going to have any $$ left to be matching up with when SJD & I get done with you.:D
 

jrhendy

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Billy....I forgot to add this proviso for those choosing to shoot the Ghost's shot: Only to be shot when playing for $15 a game or less...:D...

...The other 2 (more important) reasons that I posted that shot, was to scare Bernie :D and to send more mis-information to Papie and John H....;)

- Ghost
Like we would be going anywhere.

Bernie may make it take a little longer but it will be like a cat finding a bird nest on the ground.:)

Note to other posters: You have to put a smiley face or Ghosty gets his feelings hurt.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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stljohnny said:
haha, i'd be happy to just watch you and some other big guns play. if i played as well as i talk about playing... man i'd be one happy camper. i just can't execute what i see most of the time. there's video, don't make me embarrass myself further by posting the links. ;)

Not me Johnny...I'm not a 'big gun' - I'm just a 'medium gun'...(but loaded with cross-hatched hollow point bullets :eek: ;))

- Ghost
 

One Pocket Ghost

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jrhendy said:
it will be like a cat finding a bird nest on the ground.

Careful 'John the cat'...some birds will turn you into a mewling kitten, if you try to mess with their nest...:eek: :eek: :) :eek: :eek:

- Ghosty
 

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jtompilot

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I talked to quite a few excellent players, Varner being one of them. I was surprised to hear what they said they would do. Diliberto was another player I talked to, and they both said that they would of pocketed the ball in Shannon's pocket and played for one. I not only think that it was the wrong choice, but a terrible one considering the skills of a player like Joyner. Diliberto vehemently opposed my choice of banking game ball, when I on the other hand thought that it was CLEARLY the correct shot. And today I feel as adamant about my choice as I did then.

By pocketing the ball in Shannons pocket you rate to be a slight favorite at best, providing Shannon doesn't 3 rail the ball into his pocket. Shannon will jack up and shoot that shot as good as anyone in the world, he's the best shooting those type of shots. But it's unfair to say that that's a good option when in fact it may be, even for a lesser player. Shoot it a few times and make your own conclusion.

Lets say that your opponent doesn't shoot the 3 railer and you are an 11/10 favorite to pocket the ball instead of banking it, that means that you will win 11 out of 21 games. Right?

Now lets say that this same situation shows itself 20 times, so to figure out what the odds are for you to win shooting at the bank you first must guesstimate how many times you rate to pocket the bank out of 20 times. I shot the bank 20 times and made it 7 times, hung it up 7 times left no return shot 3 times and sold out a possible bank 3 times. I know it's unfair to make a judgement on a player shooting the same shot 20 straight times, because he's going to school each time he shoots it.;) So I will be more than fair and do the math based on what I feel is an approximate % of the possibilities.

A good player rates to pocket the bank 5 out of 20 times..up 5 games

A good player rates to hang the ball 5 times making him a 2/1 fav. to win those games when he hangs the ball 5 times 66.66%=up 3.33 games + 5 games for a total win % in game of 8.33 games won out of 10 games.

A good player rates to safe his opponent 6 times off a miss for a + 3 games giving him a games won % of 11.33 games won out of 16 games played.

A good player rates to sell out a possible return bank 4 times out of 20 games which I will reward to his opponent all 4 games. giving Joyner 0 games won for a total of 11.33 games won against 8.67 games lost. Which is approximately a 13/10 favorite.

The odds are based off of top players.

Bottom line shooting the bank you're a 13/10 favorite

Pocketing the ball in Shannon's pocket you're a 11/10 favorite.

Sounds like a lot of stuff that we need not know, but I was bored and thought that a few might be interested.:)

I'm hungry now so out to dinner, see ya later.:)

Billy I.[/QUOTE]


Billy, I also like the bank for the win. But I think you percentages are way off on the safety. I think the safety is more like a 2 to 1 favorate. Have you shot the 3 railer? Holly Cow:eek: thats one tough bank. Did you shoot the 3railer 20 times. The scratch, kiss, and just plain sell out are all in play.

Jim
 
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gulfportdoc

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wincardona said:
Art, you're confusing me again, why would he follow the ball in when all he needs to do is pocket the ball and leave Shannon in a fairly tough spot? Who said anything about following the ball in? That's suicidal!!

There are only two options, you either bank at your out ball, or pocket the ball in Shannon's pocket and you both need one. There aren't any more viable options.

The last time we had this type of a discussion you said that you got the pockets mixed up, how can you explain this?? How old are you again?;)

Billy I.
Stop jumping to conclusions.:rolleyes: I simply laid out 3 possibilities. Following the ball in is no good. I'd be surprised if Cliff didn't bank in his game ball.

Doc
 

stljohnny

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jrhendy said:
You are not going to have any $$ left to be matching up with when SJD & I get done with you.:D
Don't worry jrhendy, I'm fiscally conservative when it comes to action... and yes, i'm aware of how that bad that makes me look. lol Besides, I can't make it to the DCC this year anyway, unfortunately. I was hoping to, but just can't.
 

SJDinPHX

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stljohnny said:
Don't worry jrhendy, I'm fiscally conservative when it comes to action... and yes, i'm aware of how that bad that makes me look. lol Besides, I can't make it to the DCC this year anyway, unfortunately. I was hoping to, but just can't.
Johnny,

I am certain Jrhendy directed that post at the Ghost...(and he is usually at a loss for words)...:rolleyes:
 
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stljohnny

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SJDinPHX said:
Johnny,

I am certain Jrhendy directed that post at the Ghost...(and he is usually at a loss for words)...:rolleyes:
oh i know... but this followed ghost's "play ya some even" comment to me. i just didn't want hendy to be concerned about his action with the ghost. ;)
 
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