Cooney over Parica?

BackPocket9Ball

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As great a one pocket player as Jack Cooney was, I can't for the life of me figure out how he could be getting HOF votes 3 to 1 over Jose Parica.

Just an observation.
 

fred bentivegna

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Slightly different perspective from the BCA HOF

Slightly different perspective from the BCA HOF

BackPocket9Ball said:
As great a one pocket player as Jack Cooney was, I can't for the life of me figure out how he could be getting HOF votes 3 to 1 over Jose Parica.

Just an observation.
The considerations for induction into the OnePocket HOF is not the same as the BCA HOF, which is tournament play and who could beat who. 1pkt HOF is not totally "who could beat who," but a lot of "who could break who," and "who do you most associate the 1pkt banner with." Weenie Beanie is in, and he was at best an even game with Minnesota Fats at a time when Fatty was on the down-slide. When most people think of Jose do they think of 1pkt or 9ball? With that said, I will include that no one has more respect for Jose's game than me. I think he is an absolute monster, player and gambler. But here may be another point for consideration, when Jose was around Chicago for about a year, and he and I played a lot, he picked up at least 25% of his 1pkt moves from me. Jack and I spent a lot of time hustling together, but we did play a few times. In all that time, I don't think Jack picked up any 1pkt moves from me.

the Beard
 

gulfportdoc

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fred bentivegna said:
Jack and I spent a lot of time hustling together, but we did play a few times. In all that time, I don't think Jack picked up any 1pkt moves from me.
So, Fred, are you saying that if Jack had picked up a few moves from you, he would have been an even better one-pocket player?:D

BTW, I know that you are good friends with the Cooneys. But in regards Jack's expertise, I understand that he was a major league hustler, but did he ever do well with any of the top 1P players? I did see a tape of him beating Joyner at the 1998 World's, but Joyner played about 2 levels below his normal speed.

Doc
 

BackPocket9Ball

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fred bentivegna said:
The considerations for induction into the OnePocket HOF is not the same as the BCA HOF, which is tournament play and who could beat who. 1pkt HOF is not totally "who could beat who," but a lot of "who could break who," and "who do you most associate the 1pkt banner with." Weenie Beanie is in, and he was at best an even game with Minnesota Fats at a time when Fatty was on the down-slide. When most people think of Jose do they think of 1pkt or 9ball? With that said, I will include that no one has more respect for Jose's game than me. I think he is an absolute monster, player and gambler. But here may be another point for consideration, when Jose was around Chicago for about a year, and he and I played a lot, he picked up at least 25% of his 1pkt moves from me. Jack and I spent a lot of time hustling together, but we did play a few times. In all that time, I don't think Jack picked up any 1pkt moves from me.

the Beard
I think the comparison you make between Jose and Jack above only proves the point of who started playing the game before whom. Obviously Jack's been playing one pocket a lot longer than Jose. That's why Jose was still learning the game in the early 90s. I don't think length of time playing is a very important criteria for HOF consideration if both players have been playing top-level one pocket for 15 years or more. Hell, Clem was probably top 3 in the country at one pocket by the time Cooney was 10 years old. Does this mean Clem is more of a deserving candidate than Cooney?

To tell you the truth, I have no idea.
 

BackPocket9Ball

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gulfportdoc said:
So, Fred, are you saying that if Jack had picked up a few moves from you, he would have been an even better one-pocket player?:D

BTW, I know that you are good friends with the Cooneys. But in regards Jack's expertise, I understand that he was a major league hustler, but did he ever do well with any of the top 1P players? I did see a tape of him beating Joyner at the 1998 World's, but Joyner played about 2 levels below his normal speed.

Doc
Doc,

I've seen that tape too. It was a while ago, but I could've sworn that Cliff beat Cooney on the hill.
 

Smorgass Bored

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gulfportdoc said:
BTW, I know that you are good friends with the Cooneys. But in regards Jack's expertise, I understand that he was a major league hustler, but did he ever do well with any of the top 1P players? I did see a tape of him beating Joyner at the 1998 World's, but Joyner played about 2 levels below his normal speed.

Doc

I believe that you are thinking of our San Jose Dick beating Joyner at the 1998 Tournament 4-3.

Doug

*CRONYISM: noun; refers to the favourable treatment of friends and associates in the distribution of resources and positions, regardless of their objective qualifications. :)
 

jrhendy

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gulfportdoc said:

BTW, I know that you are good friends with the Cooneys. But in regards Jack's expertise, I understand that he was a major league hustler, but did he ever do well with any of the top 1P players? I did see a tape of him beating Joyner at the 1998 World's, but Joyner played about 2 levels below his normal speed.

Doc
Doc, maybe the reason he played below his speed had something to do with Jack's style of play against him.

I remember sweating Jack and Grady playing at The House of Billiards at 6th & Western in the 70's when Grady was acknowledged by most as one of the best one pocket players in the country. Jack was getting 9/8 for a decent bet and they played two or three long sessions if my memory is correct. I don't remember who came out on top, and if they did it was not by much. I do remember Grady saying " I'm supposed to be the best player in the country and I don't see anything I do better than this guy".

Grady may elaborate more if he sees this post, but it was a great match to sweat, watching two of the best.
 

fred bentivegna

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Fire and water

Fire and water

gulfportdoc said:
So, Fred, are you saying that if Jack had picked up a few moves from you, he would have been an even better one-pocket player?:D

BTW, I know that you are good friends with the Cooneys. But in regards Jack's expertise, I understand that he was a major league hustler, but did he ever do well with any of the top 1P players? I did see a tape of him beating Joyner at the 1998 World's, but Joyner played about 2 levels below his normal speed.

Doc
Jack and I were in complete disagreement re 1pkt. He played West Coast style and I played Chicago style. Fire and Water, and never the twain shall meet. Yes, I am good friends with the Cooneys, but I am also good pals with Jose, not close like Jack -- we hustled together-- but close. Jose has, and will do any favor for me (exception: a serious bite). He'll wear my shirts, sign my books and cue balls, pose for pics, and wholeheartedly run thru any kind of promo wringer that I ask him to. And just like Efren, he will do it for nada. Won't take a quarter. Plus, now that I am an old-timer myself, I sympathize with age over youth. That's why I also lean towards Clem over Hopkins. Allen is certainly more than deserving, but Clem is probably on his last legs. Sentiment. Sentiment. They do it in Hollywood for the Oscars.
Jack did plenty of gunfighting when he spent a year at the Rack in Detroit. Off the top of my head he played Grady, Ronnie, Bugs, Corn Bread, etc. He and I played at the Rack for big money. He played me 10-8, 9-8. I broke him, but I waited until he had been playing for 2 days straight with Wolfie before I stepped up. Barbara valiantly tried to queer the game but Jack was too jacked-up chemically to back down.

the Beard
 

SJDinPHX

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J & B, What a team !

J & B, What a team !

jrhendy said:
Doc, maybe the reason he played below his speed had something to do with Jack's style of play against him.

I remember sweating Jack and Grady playing at The House of Billiards at 6th & Western in the 70's when Grady was acknowledged by most as one of the best one pocket players in the country. Jack was getting 9/8 for a decent bet and they played two or three long sessions if my memory is correct. I don't remember who came out on top, and if they did it was not by much. I do remember Grady saying " I'm supposed to be the best player in the country and I don't see anything I do better than this guy".

Grady may elaborate more if he sees this post, but it was a great match to sweat, watching two of the best.
I cocur John. Cooney was a mistake-proof machine at 1P. He was never the greatest shot maker, or ball runner, but he was the best, bar none, at getting out of traps.
And even better at putting his opponent in them.
What Jack didn't know about 1P and hustling.....Barbara DID ! :eek:
Cooney Fan Dick
 

Smorgass Bored

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:D I was attracted to this thread by the music.
It turned out to be Freddy "The Bread" tooting his own horn.........as usual (imo) :eek:

Doug
 

SJDinPHX

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Smorgass Bored said:
:D I was attracted to this thread by the music.
It turned out to be Freddy "The Bread" tooting his own horn.........as usual (imo) :eek:

Doug
It really irritates me that some AZbilliard reject, newcomer can come on here and cast aspersions on our "Beard". I have never heard one bragardly claim come out of Freddies mouth. I'm sure he learned his humility from Artie.

Freddy Fan Dick

PS Now the Ghost....thats another story !
 

fred bentivegna

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Who me?

Who me?

Smorgass Bored said:
:D I was attracted to this thread by the music.
It turned out to be Freddy "The Bread" tooting his own horn.........as usual (imo) :eek:

Doug
After just recently absorbing the Grand Master of Bragadoccio's ramblings for a month or so, I would have thought you would have considered me a humble soul in comparison. Plus, have you ever heard a storyteller spend his time telling about losers?

the Beard
 

gulfportdoc

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BackPocket9Ball said:
Doc,

I've seen that tape too. It was a while ago, but I could've sworn that Cliff beat Cooney on the hill.
You know, you might be right, BP9. I'll have to go back and watch that tape again. Cooney played very well, and I could see how he could by his nature stay under the radar for anyone who didn't know him. Cliff was way off in that match-- lots of unforced errors.

Doc
 

newfosgatesucks

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Response to the Beard...

Response to the Beard...

With all due respect...and to you the highest....
you picked your moves up somewhere. So did efren. As I hear it, Efren learned some from you...Does this mean he cant be in the HOF like Parica? When Jose is on, he blazes through the field like a monster, I believe he is deserving of the spot as well....You remember coming to Jackson TN and watching a weak/young 9ball player several years ago? I asked you for a game and you denied - I would like to thank you for being a classy gentleman that day and not breaking me!!!
 

fred bentivegna

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I give

I give

gulfportdoc said:
Ha! How about: "The Mahareeshi of Pocket-apiecey"...:D

Doc
I'm afraid I can't top that one, Doc. I tried, but to no avail.

the Beard

Careful, he's still out there watching.
 

jay helfert

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Looks like I got here just in time. Toupee Jay to the rescue. :)
If Jack and Parica would have gambled at One Pocket, it probably would have turned out bad for Jose. Jack was the all time smoothest at matching up and robbing people. And yes he could play jam up if he had to. Just ask james Walden or the Monk or Ronnie for that matter.

The guy who really belongs in the One Pocket HOF and isn't getting the votes is Clem. He is only one of the all time great players, the only man who stood a chance with Rags in the 50's. In fact, Clem may have been the favorite. The guy was only a legend in his day. I like Jack, Allen and Marvin, but I voted for Clem first!
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Cooney vs. Parica

Cooney vs. Parica

Just my two cents. I've seen them both play and Parica couldn't carry Cooneys jockstrap, to paraphrase Larry Holmes, if memory serves correctly.
 

SJDinPHX

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Just my two cents. I've seen them both play and Parica couldn't carry Cooneys jockstrap, to paraphrase Larry Holmes, if memory serves correctly.
They are both great players. I have gone up against them both several times.
If Tommy DeLorenzo would care to join this thread, I think some of you might be surprised.
For my cash, Parica,as good as he played, would not beat Jack in a long session. Once again, thats only my opinion after playing them both, nose bleed high, I am happy to say, not much money changed hands. Jack would outsmart Jose before the match-up, and would wind up getting the cash.

Dick
 
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SJDinPHX

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jay helfert said:
Looks like I got here just in time. Toupee Jay to the rescue. :)
If Jack and Parica would have gambled at One Pocket, it probably would have turned out bad for Jose. Jack was the all time smoothest at matching up and robbing people. And yes he could play jam up if he had to. Just ask james Walden or the Monk or Ronnie for that matter.

The guy who really belongs in the One Pocket HOF and isn't getting the votes is Clem. He is only one of the all time great players, the only man who stood a chance with Rags in the 50's. In fact, Clem may have been the favorite. The guy was only a legend in his day. I like Jack, Allen and Marvin, but I voted for Clem first!
Jay,
I bow to your knowledge of player's and their claim to fame. However, at some point, a mans character has to enter into the equation.
From that perspective, I'm sorry but Clem was a "bottom feeder". Most of the old crew placed him on, or about the same level as Detroit Whitey, but with a lot less balls.
I will say this, it is amazing how well he played considering he spent most of his teen years and a good part of his adult life "on vacation", or parole. :rolleyes:

Dick
 
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