Calling a foul

newfosgatesucks

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
858
So you are saying, the guy runs 4-5 balls, and falls on this shot, and you randomly proclaim all frozen balls before you leave the table? What I'm saying is he runs into this shot during his inning - Like I said- Be Honest with yourself. He jumps out of his chair with 5 balls on the table, pulls off a heck of a shot, and runs a few more, You KNEW what shot you LEFT him and it has no chance of foul...

You know I tend to agree with your opinion on the matter, and you know I feel it is my responsibility. All I am saying is there are instances where the situation does not call for escalated attention, in which case (re:my example) you would be shooting at game ball, with him needing two, and now you are left with the scenario of playing even with him getting the first move.

It is not acceptable to allow these things to slide at the professional level.

And Let's say you DO notice the frozen ball - so now you are left to find a tournament official while he shoots-And violate the very "never leave the table while he shoots" rule? That everyone defends?

Or if you wait until he falls on it and notify him-
-does your opponent deserve to be stopped mid-inning because the depicted shot is frozen and wait for a tournament official? Is that required in ANY sport? ANY sport at all?

And, keeping it honest - Would you notice it from your chair, which you are INSTRUCTED to sit in when not at the table- so there are loop holes in the program? Would it cross your mind to call that ball froze in the first place? REALLY think, about the situation...I believe the last thing on most players mind would be that frozen ball...Because of the circumstance.


Re: the current state of pool- the very reason it is there is because it is a gambling game and it is labeled as a game with little to no ethics, and we can all stand here and defend unethical behavior.

And that is fine - seriously, less that 5 percent of people in america are pool fans/players. What about Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc?

I paid rent & utilities, ate, paid more child support a month than I had to, while playing this game for a living. It was my responsibility to keep them playing. That 5 percent of the population who follow this game- if it were raised by 2.5 percent it would mean players galore, nation-wide. But we can't beat our label, I had to give up. I suffered only two serious losses and a winning record in the 90 percentile, had a tournament record that was remarkable. But the limited people to play and the limited percent of those who had enough to gamble enough to make it worth playing, is not as high. So I got a real job. If pool had a more ethical root in america's mind, I would still be playing full-time, 12 hours or better every day. But we stand up to defend the unethical! Look what it does to the sport guys.

It is our responsibility as representatives of an era of this fine sport to elevate it higher, not to accept mediocre for an answer. Did any top pro accept mediocre results in practice? No. Then why accept mediocre as the great decider of a major event?

The very fact we accept this, is a major contributor to the state of Pocket billiards - and it is our responsibility to make this go away for future generations, because this fine sport does not die when we do.


Cowboy Dennis said:
NFS,

Almost without exception, any player that I've ever gambled with would call the 1 ball frozen before he sat down. If he didn't and I executed the shot the way you've shown it would not be a foul because the ball was not called frozen and confirmed by me as such. In order for a ball to be considered frozen it must be called frozen by your opponent and confirmed by you. The 1 ball is not frozen until both players agree it is frozen.

Dennis
 

stevelomako

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
990
Cowboy Dennis said:
Steve didn't give an opinion either way, he asked two questions.
Which you didn't answer.


If I was asked by my opponent I would tell them what happened on the shot good or bad.



I am a firm proponent on NOT calling fouls on yourself because of the shittly little intentional things you can do on purpose even with a referee.

I did it with "Natural" one time screwing around in a tournament at Bogarts. His game ball was in the hole with another one across the line so I couldn't just make his and scratch or jump the table.

I told him "I'm going to do something funky here so if you want to get a ref you better". He goes and gets Evelyn Dysart who was running it with her husband and she comes over to watch and I do the old double hit the cue ball move, making his ball and leaving the cue ball in his jaws. She calls "foul!" and Brian starts going nuts. I take his game ball out and spot it along with one of mine. I dont say anything...not a thing, everybody around is arguing about it, the Dysarts are saying they are correct. It was a real mess for a little bit and I just stayed out of it because so many people were arguing.


Finally....I racked them for a new game.

I told everyone "Thats why only your opponent should be able to call a foul on you."



But if asked...I'm going to tell them what happened and they can decide whether to call the foul or not.
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
Roy Steffensen said:
I always call foul on myself

I'll rather lose with dignity than win knowing that I "cheated"
Well then Roy I'm sorry because as long as I have been playing In tournaments
I have never had ayone tell me that I had to call my own fouls. Learn something every day, so they say. Also, I don't remember having ever been called a cheater or thief.So I guess It don't come up often anyway.Roy those
guys you mentioned aren't the same ones I grew up having to fade. So I take that part back about all pros.Just the ones I grew up playing. It was and Is dog eat dog over here Roy.I'm talking the pro tour I have been on for the last
25 years or more. Good day Roy.John B.
 

bstroud

Verified Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
1,426
I am not telling anyone else what to do. I just know I have always played that way and would feel very wrong taking advantage because someone was not watching me every second.

I fouled the cue ball just yesterday playing one pocket and backed away from the shot. I did not need to wait for my opponent to call a foul. I did it myself. I lost a game I would have won.

That's just me. Everyone can play however they feel is right. I just feel that doing the right thing pays dividends in the end. I guess I have been lucky.

I have played many people that would do anything to win. It has never helped them at all. They have always lost. Bucktooth comes to mind.

I make sure I pay attention when I play. I never miss a frozen ball and I always watch my opponent shoot. If he fouls I call it immediately. Just like I do on myself.

That's just me.

Bill Stroud
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
bstroud said:
Calling a foul on oneself is common in Golf. You are usually the only one that knows but it is what players do. They seem to feel it is the right thing to do.
Palmer did it. Nicklaus did it. Even Hogan.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons it is called "The Greatest Game."

Cheating is NOT winning.

Bill Stroud
I knew someone was going to bring up the golf. I play golf,and I'm just going to say that Is not very fair to compare the guys I grew up playing pool In tournys with, to the golfers I grew up playing. Whole different breed there bud. John B.
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
Dudley said:
I understand where the non foul callers are coming from..... However I will always call a foul on myself UNLESS I feel like my opponent wouldn't.


I adjust my level of etiquette to my opponent. I do prefer to call fouls on myself because it seems like the right way to play and the majority of people I play against do also without hesitation.

I think it really comes down to your experience with the people you gamble with.

If your adversary would NEVER call a foul on themselves it would be kind of ridiculous to act differently. That would almost be like giving up a spot.


Dudley
I agree with that very much.That's pretty much how I play also.John B.
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
beatle said:
two sides two ideas of what is right.

clearly if your opponent tells you he will not call fouls on himself and it is your job to do it then that is the parameter of the game. i believe if you feel that way you should inform him of your intentions as many players feel you are obligated to calls fouls on yourself. once informed then it is okay to play that way. tournaments are a different matter.

i guess i also feel that if i must call all his fouls i also have a right to stand over him when he is shooting to watch closely on any questionable shots. goes with the territory.

if i am robbing a guy he can get away with it once in awhile as it also brings him back again. but that is a tactical thing.

if i dont trust a player i watch and expect all things can happen if i look away.

if i know my opponent wont call fouls i watch him as dennis says i also should anyway.
Yes ,trust know one watch the game every shot every time never look away. And yes you can get up and watch me close or get someone to watch the hit. John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
11,123
newfosgatesucks said:
So you are saying, the guy runs 4-5 balls, and falls on this shot, and you randomly proclaim all frozen balls before you leave the table? What I'm saying is he runs into this shot during his inning then this is when I walk over to the table and call the ball frozen if I think it's frozen - Like I said- Be Honest with yourself. He jumps out of his chair with 5 balls on the table, pulls off a heck of a shot, and runs a few more, You KNEW what shot you LEFT him and it has no chance of foul...

You know I tend to agree with your opinion on the matter, and you know I feel it is my responsibility. All I am saying is there are instances where the situation does not call for escalated attention walking to the table to call a ball frozen or not is an accepted part of gambling at pool and always has been, in which case (re:my example) you would be shooting at game ball, with him needing two, and now you are left with the scenario of playing even with him getting the first move.

It is not acceptable to allow these things to slide at the professional level. You did not say in your original post that you were speaking of a tournament

And Let's say you DO notice the frozen ball - so now you are left to find a tournament official while he shoots-And violate the very "never leave the table while he shoots" rule? That everyone defends? I don't know what this means

Or if you wait until he falls on it and notify him-
-does your opponent deserve to be stopped mid-inning because the depicted shot is frozen and wait for a tournament official? Yes Is that required in ANY sport? ANY sport at all? We aren't discussing any other sport

And, keeping it honest You don't have to keep reminding me to do this, it comes natural - Would you notice it from your chair, which you are INSTRUCTED to sit in when not at the table- so there are loop holes in the program? Would it cross your mind to call that ball froze in the first place? Absolutely, I've done it countless times REALLY think, about the situation...I believe the last thing on most players mind would be that frozen ball...Because of the circumstance. California John was once too lazy to walk around the table before he sat down and he just said "everything near a rail is frozen":D


Re: the current state of pool- the very reason it is there is because it is a gambling game and it is labeled as a game with little to no ethics, and we can all stand here and defend unethical behavior. This has nothing at all to do with anything we are talking about

And that is fine - seriously, less that 5 percent of people in america are pool fans/players. What about Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc?

I paid rent & utilities, ate, paid more child support a month than I had to, while playing this game for a living. It was my responsibility to keep them playing. That 5 percent of the population who follow this game- if it were raised by 2.5 percent it would mean players galore, nation-wide. But we can't beat our label, I had to give up. I suffered only two serious losses and a winning record in the 90 percentile, had a tournament record that was remarkable. But the limited people to play and the limited percent of those who had enough to gamble enough to make it worth playing, is not as high. So I got a real job. If pool had a more ethical root in america's mind, I would still be playing full-time, 12 hours or better every day. But we stand up to defend the unethical! Look what it does to the sport guys.

It is our responsibility as representatives of an era of this fine sport to elevate it higher, not to accept mediocre for an answer. Did any top pro accept mediocre results in practice? No. Then why accept mediocre as the great decider of a major event?

The very fact we accept this, is a major contributor to the state of Pocket billiards - and it is our responsibility to make this go away for future generations, because this fine sport does not die when we do.
NFS,

That's a real nice speech that is irrelevant to the thread:) . You give heartfelt opinions and I feel just as strongly, maybe more so, the other way. As soon as they change tournament rules to make it mandatory for a player to call a foul on himself if he did indeed foul then I would agree with you, for tournaments only though.

P.S. No ball is ever frozen unless called so by a player and acknowleged by the other player. Just because you are shooting and think it's frozen doesn't mean anything at all.

Dennis
 

bstroud

Verified Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
1,426
Just one more thing. In one pocket if you foul you lose your inning and one ball.
A foul is a foul. Just because only you know about it does not make it less of a foul. You lose your inning and owe one ball. That is the rule.

If you choose to play by a different set of rules you should declare so in advance. I don't know exactly how you would specify that if you foul the cue ball and your opponent was daydreaming that it didn't count? Interesting rule?

I play if you snooze you loose but that is not about fouls.

Bill Stroud
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
11,123
bstroud said:
I am not telling anyone else what to do. I just know I have always played that way and would feel very wrong taking advantage because someone was not watching me every second.

I fouled the cue ball just yesterday playing one pocket and backed away from the shot. I did not need to wait for my opponent to call a foul. I did it myself. I lost a game I would have won.

That's just me. Everyone can play however they feel is right. I just feel that doing the right thing pays dividends in the end. I guess I have been lucky.

I have played many people that would do anything to win. It has never helped them at all. They have always lost. Bucktooth comes to mind.

I make sure I pay attention when I play. I never miss a frozen ball and I always watch my opponent shoot. If he fouls I call it immediately. Just like I do on myself.

That's just me.

Bill Stroud
Bill,

I think you and many others are missing the point here. I will not only not call a foul on myself, I won't let you do it either. You are not going to spot a ball up for a foul that I didn't see. Nobody is.

Dennis
 

bstroud

Verified Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
1,426
Dennis,

You have no choice playing me. If I foul the cue ball or the intended path of the cue ball whether you see it or not I step away from the shot and say so. That is how I have always played and I think it is the right way to play.

If you would want me to continue shooting after that then it would be your choice but it has never happened.

Bill Stroud
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
bstroud said:
I am not telling anyone else what to do. I just know I have always played that way and would feel very wrong taking advantage because someone was not watching me every second.

I fouled the cue ball just yesterday playing one pocket and backed away from the shot. I did not need to wait for my opponent to call a foul. I did it myself. I lost a game I would have won.

That's just me. Everyone can play however they feel is right. I just feel that doing the right thing pays dividends in the end. I guess I have been lucky.

I have played many people that would do anything to win. It has never helped them at all. They have always lost. Bucktooth comes to mind.

I make sure I pay attention when I play. I never miss a frozen ball and I always watch my opponent shoot. If he fouls I call it immediately. Just like I do on myself.

That's just me.

Bill Stroud
Bill, I did say that I was not talikng about fudging or fouling the cue ball. I'm just thinking about all the times where my opp Is not paying enough attention to our game.All they have to do Is watch and pay attention. John B.
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
Cowboy Dennis said:
NFS,

That's a real nice speech that is irrelevant to the thread:) . You give heartfelt opinions and I feel just as strongly, maybe more so, the other way. As soon as they change tournament rules to make it mandatory for a player to call a foul on himself if he did indeed foul then I would agree with you, for tournaments only though.

P.S. No ball is ever frozen unless called so by a player and acknowleged by the other player. Just because you are shooting and think it's frozen doesn't mean anything at all.

Dennis
Yes, and you can jump right out of your chair to check It too.You really are allowed to do that.You have to sometimes If you don't want to get burned.
John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
11,123
bstroud said:
Dennis,

You have no choice playing me. If I foul the cue ball or the intended path of the cue ball whether you see it or not I step away from the shot and say so. That is how I have always played and I think it is the right way to play.

If you would want me to continue shooting after that then it would be your choice but it has never happened.

Bill Stroud
Bill,

I stand behind and back up my opinions even when they will hurt me, that's the only fair way to be. If I don't see you foul then you didn't and you would continue your inning at the table until it ends.

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative here but the way I feel about this applies to both of us. There are reasons why a player should not be able to call a foul on himself.

I've also stated previous that in a game with a longtime acquaintance or frequent gambling opponent (who I respect) that I would indeed relax my standards and allow either of us to call a foul on ourselves. But for serious cash or against strangers or unscrupulous players I stand by my original opinion on this.

Dennis
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,275
Artie Bodendorfer said:
Bill lets get this clarified this is not cheating. Ok you do not need too make someone feel guilty by makeing it like they are cheating.

If anyone is cheating its the person not making the call. And nobody who does this is not cheating, Its the other persons responsability. Not youres.

You have to protect youself in any game and in life its your responsability.

You think because you called a foul on yourself you did the wright thing. And you are playing someone who has no chance too win. Were is your integraty.

If you feel that way you should never play anyone who playes worse then you. THat will show integraty and cracter.

I play a honest game but for me to call a foul on myself. I have too be playing a person who will do the same thing. Or else I am a fool.

And to say thats cheating is a very poor choice off words.
Jut like some suckers you beat. Should I say you robbed them. You didnt rob nobody.

If they were fools enough too play you and loose thier money. Then you didnt rob them. They gave you thev money. You didnt force them too play.

They had a choice. And the made a loosing no win choice.

And thats what the casinos do every day. And they say its legele because they have a legele liscence too do it.

And people make the choice to play or not too play. If we make the wrong choice we loose. If you make the correct choice we win.

And life is all about choices. Even the women we pick in our relationship. WE are only responsable for our mistakes not the other persons mistakes.

Are we part off the problem? yes we are. But its not up too us too take care off another persons responsability. They need too be held accountabe for not doing what is thier responsability.

And people get away with millions off mistakes a day. Some are costly and some are even detramental.

But a mistake is not cheating or robing anyone. And we cannot be blamed for another persons mestakes.They need to be held accountable for thier mistakes.

Im not this kind off person. But I do need to show the truth and what it realy is.To explain both sides. And you did not cheat to have this done.

Cheating is doing something on pourpose.This was not done on pourpose. It was a mistake your opponent should have seen and called. A mistake. Not cheating. Cheating is doing something on pourpose.

I am saying this for both sides. Not so one side can feel good and the other side feel bad. A mistake is not cheating.

Wow, that was some good advice Artie and I endorse everything you said. Not only that but you spelled most of your words correctly.;)

I really enjoyed your post.

Billy I.
 

Guest

Guest
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
947
wincardona said:
Wow, that was some good advice Artie and I endorse everything you said. Not only that but you spelled most of your words correctly.;)

I really enjoyed your post.

Billy I.
I so agree. Artie keeps it real. And yeah, his spelling is improving :eek:

I, too, support his beliefs.
 

John Brumback

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,747
wincardona said:
Wow, that was some good advice Artie and I endorse everything you said. Not only that but you spelled most of your words correctly.;)

I really enjoyed your post.

Billy I.
Me too!!! There Is no way I could have said It that good.Good job Artie,John B.
 

wincardona

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
7,275
Artie Bodendorfer said:
Bill lets get this clarified this is not cheating. Ok you do not need too make someone feel guilty by makeing it like they are cheating.

If anyone is cheating its the person not making the call. And nobody who does this is not cheating, Its the other persons responsability. Not youres.

You have to protect youself in any game and in life its your responsability.

You think because you called a foul on yourself you did the wright thing. And you are playing someone who has no chance too win. Were is your integraty.

If you feel that way you should never play anyone who playes worse then you. THat will show integraty and cracter.

I play a honest game but for me to call a foul on myself. I have too be playing a person who will do the same thing. Or else I am a fool.

And to say thats cheating is a very poor choice off words.
Jut like some suckers you beat. Should I say you robbed them. You didnt rob nobody.

If they were fools enough too play you and loose thier money. Then you didnt rob them. They gave you thev money. You didnt force them too play.

They had a choice. And the made a loosing no win choice.

And thats what the casinos do every day. And they say its legele because they have a legele liscence too do it.

And people make the choice to play or not too play. If we make the wrong choice we loose. If you make the correct choice we win.

And life is all about choices. Even the women we pick in our relationship. WE are only responsable for our mistakes not the other persons mistakes.

Are we part off the problem? yes we are. But its not up too us too take care off another persons responsability. They need too be held accountabe for not doing what is thier responsability.

And people get away with millions off mistakes a day. Some are costly and some are even detramental.

But a mistake is not cheating or robing anyone. And we cannot be blamed for another persons mestakes.They need to be held accountable for thier mistakes.

Im not this kind off person. But I do need to show the truth and what it realy is.To explain both sides. And you did not cheat to have this done.

Cheating is doing something on pourpose.This was not done on pourpose. It was a mistake your opponent should have seen and called. A mistake. Not cheating. Cheating is doing something on pourpose.

I am saying this for both sides. Not so one side can feel good and the other side feel bad. A mistake is not cheating.
Once again, I agree. In a football game you will never see a player say " Mr. official you need to penalize me for holding that player"

Or in a prize fight a fighter will never say " Hey ref I hit him low, aren't you going to take a point away"

Or in a baseball game the pitcher will never say " hey ump, didn't you see that.I hit that batter"

Or in a horse race the jockey will never claim an objection against himself.

I can go on and on, but my point should be well taken, and Artie is right when he says it's not cheating, your not playing outside the rules by not calling a foul on yourself.

Cheating is when in a baseball game a pitcher puts a foreign object on the ball to make it do funny things.

Or a prize fighter puts weight in his gloves to hit harder.

Or when an athlete uses a enhancing drug to improve his performance.

Or when a pool player spits in the chalk.:eek:


Like Artie says, when you make a mistake it's not cheating..embarrassing, but not cheating. A double hit on the cue ball is a mistake, an unintentional push shot is a mistake, and it's up to your opponent to make the call. Just like it's up to a ref to make the call in tournaments, as it is for officials in football, or umpires in baseball.

And when I go through a red light if a cop don't stop me, i'm not going to wave one down.:D

Billy I.
 
Top