Calling a foul

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Steve,

When I was playing John McCue at your place I shot a ball and he was turned around lighting a cigarrette. He turned around when I shot a slow moving safety and he never saw anything hit a rail although a couple of balls did. He took a chance anyway, just to see how stupid I was. He said "did you get a rail there?". I told him that if he had been watching the shot then he would know. That ended the conversation.

As to your question: I have never and would never fail to see my opponents shot and then ask what happened. It's my possible loss for not paying attention to his shot.

Dennis
I would feel stupid If i had to ask my opp what just happened. I like It when I'm playing somebody banks and I have to say "hey... over here" I'm going to call this shot..umm straight back. Another reason I don't think anyone should ware head phones and the like. John B.
 

John Brumback

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sappo said:
John, i guess if your opponent doesnt see it you could get away with it BUT if you fail to hit a rail IT IS A FOUL! I beleive you should tell your opponent you fouled, that is if you have integrity.. keith
Sappo,It's not about "getting away with It" And I have alot of (Integrity)
It's not cheating or anything thing close to that. I'm sorry you feel that way. John B.
 

SactownTom

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Often the shooter isn't aware of the foul that has been committed.

And visa versa;He may be watching the Object ball to see if it hit a rail and it doesn't but the cue ball did. He calls a foul on himself and it is a wrong call.

Most players will call the obvious fouls because they think they are suppose to. In the rules, the non-shooter is suppose to make the calls.

Calling fouls on yourself may make you feel good about yourself, but if you are talking about "integrity" who will go back and refile their taxes when they find mistakes that cause them to pay more?

When you run a stop sign, do you look for a cop to write you a ticket?

When playing in a ref''d match, if you are talking while your opponent is at the table it is considered unsportsmanlike conduct. Silent and in your assigned chair is the tournament rule when there is a Ref presiding. The ref is there to make calls, this is to relieve the shooter from having to make calls on himself and for the non-shooter to be represented at the table.
 
Last edited:

SactownTom

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IMO area refs should be available for all money matches. Table refs for each of the final 4 matches. Just my opinion.

markgriffin said:
So - with the questions about 'snooze you loose' - or if you had a legitimate reason for not having your eyes on the table.

Do you guys think we should have a ref on the final table? Who would rule on all fouls made?

Would this be a good addition and on which matches should a ref be present.

We cannot have a ref on every table and every shot - but we can on so many of the final matches.

Your thoughts???

mark Griffin
(markg@playcsipool.com)
702-719-7665 office
 

Fast Lenny

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Refs should be available for TV/streaming matches at a a major event and also the semis and finals obviously. In One Pocket it is needed more than most games because of the little tippy tap shots and stack play.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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John Brumback said:
Sappo,It's not about "getting away with It" And I have alot of (Integrity)
It's not cheating or anything thing close to that. I'm sorry you feel that way. John B.[/QUOTE

Your playing too win. Not to get the nicest guy off the year award. People loose all the time because they make mistakes.

If a player is not watching and something happines its not Johns faulte or responsability too tell the player anything. Its the players responsability too watch the game.

And if he cant do that he souldnt be playing. Ansking someone else to do hid responsability too help him win. Its not Johs fault.

But the other players. For nor doing what he is supoose too do. I guess if you have a choice your life or someone elses life.

You shoild die for him for integraty. Even if it was your faulte in the accedent.

In the real world we are responsable for our mistakes. And so is the other person. And the responsability is too look out for ourselves.

And if a person sleeps a mistake that you made but it was his responsability. To call it and see it. And thier are people who loose thier money.

Because they are fools waiting to get beat. Thier are a millions off them in the Casinos every day.

And playing pool with some one you can beat fof 10 thousand you should have integraty and not beat him. Because he has no chance too win.

Itegraty is one thing being a fool is another. And a fool and his money soon depart.

And their are millions off fools getting taken every day. Look at the car salesman. New and used. How mant people loose every day that has no chance too win.

Look at Rosse he never won. After 15 million dollaers. Where is the integraty. And a person sleeps a scratch. Its not on John its on the other player.

One more just too make this clear. You play gin rummy and you discard his gin card. He doesnt pick it up and it was his gin card. Should you tell him.

You bet a sports bet in the casino after your team wins the game. You go to collect youre money. And the teller tells you thats the loosing team on your ticket.

You loose. Not doing what is your responsability in a game is all on you not the player. Who got away with the scratch. Its got nothing too do with integraty.


And John said it real nice Im sorry you feel that way. I would have told you you deserve it and hope you learned something from it.

Pay attention to the game and the stupitity wont show up. Thier are no excuses you either watch the game.

And see what is going on. Or its simple if you cant protect yourself ion a game. Why are you playing .

You have no buisness gambling or playing in a tournement. If you dont no the rules or protect whats your responsability too do.

Maybe U should tell you youre shooting in my pocket too. Its up too the player. Too watch the game and if a rule is brocken.

Tell the player what he did. And he pays for his mistake.

But you want me to rat on myself. And call it integraty. I call that a Idiote. Too rat on youreself.

John has lots off integraty. In fact that might be his weakness being too nice.

I say it just the way it is. If a sucker wants too get beat then so be it.

He has a choice to play or not too play. He has a choice too call the foul or not too call it.

THe mistake was made by the other person not calling the foul. John didnt do anything out off line.

If the other player would have called a foul . John would have spotted a
ball. But the player didnt do what he was supose too.

Thats the other players faulte not Johns And you are putting the blame on the wrong person.

Put it on the idiote that deserves it. Not on someone that didnt do anything. Nothing in the rule book says you have too help your oponent with the rules.

This isnt a nice guys contest. Thie is playing too win. And you watch the game and the rules.

And its your responsability too call a foul. Not your opponent calling a foul on himself.
 

beatle

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too each his own. i am a cold blooded hustler at times but i feel it is my job to always have a stellar rep. my opponent knows he can go to the can and come back and he gets the right count.

if i scratch i put one up with out anyone saying a word. i expect the same from my opponent. if he plays the other way i watch him like a hawk.

if it is okay to not call one on yourself then it follows that every time you scratch that may not be clear you should quickly shoot again so you miss the penalty. is that okay as well.

in a tournament i feel it is entirely different as there are srict rules and sportsmanship isnt involved. as long as you do not violate the rules its fair game.
 

sappo

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
John Brumback said:
Sappo,It's not about "getting away with It" And I have alot of (Integrity)
It's not cheating or anything thing close to that. I'm sorry you feel that way. John B.[/QUOTE

Your playing too win. Not to get the nicest guy off the year award. People loose all the time because they make mistakes.

If a player is not watching and something happines its not Johns faulte or responsability too tell the player anything. Its the players responsability too watch the game.

And if he cant do that he souldnt be playing. Ansking someone else to do hid responsability too help him win. Its not Johs fault.

But the other players. For nor doing what he is supoose too do. I guess if you have a choice your life or someone elses life.

You shoild die for him for integraty. Even if it was your faulte in the accedent.

In the real world we are responsable for our mistakes. And so is the other person. And the responsability is too look out for ourselves.

And if a person sleeps a mistake that you made but it was his responsability. To call it and see it. And thier are people who loose thier money.

Because they are fools waiting to get beat. Thier are a millions off them in the Casinos every day.

And playing pool with some one you can beat fof 10 thousand you should have integraty and not beat him. Because he has no chance too win.

Itegraty is one thing being a fool is another. And a fool and his money soon depart.

And their are millions off fools getting taken every day. Look at the car salesman. New and used. How mant people loose every day that has no chance too win.

Look at Rosse he never won. After 15 million dollaers. Where is the integraty. And a person sleeps a scratch. Its not on John its on the other player.

One more just too make this clear. You play gin rummy and you discard his gin card. He doesnt pick it up and it was his gin card. Should you tell him.

You bet a sports bet in the casino after your team wins the game. You go to collect youre money. And the teller tells you thats the loosing team on your ticket.

You loose. Not doing what is your responsability in a game is all on you not the player. Who got away with the scratch. Its got nothing too do with integraty.


And John said it real nice Im sorry you feel that way. I would have told you you deserve it and hope you learned something from it.

Pay attention to the game and the stupitity wont show up. Thier are no excuses you either watch the game.

And see what is going on. Or its simple if you cant protect yourself ion a game. Why are you playing .

You have no buisness gambling or playing in a tournement. If you dont no the rules or protect whats your responsability too do.

Maybe U should tell you youre shooting in my pocket too. Its up too the player. Too watch the game and if a rule is brocken.

Tell the player what he did. And he pays for his mistake.

But you want me to rat on myself. And call it integraty. I call that a Idiote. Too rat on youreself.

John has lots off integraty. In fact that might be his weakness being too nice.

I say it just the way it is. If a sucker wants too get beat then so be it.

He has a choice to play or not too play. He has a choice too call the foul or not too call it.

THe mistake was made by the other person not calling the foul. John didnt do anything out off line.

If the other player would have called a foul . John would have spotted a
ball. But the player didnt do what he was supose too.

Thats the other players faulte not Johns And you are putting the blame on the wrong person.

Put it on the idiote that deserves it. Not on someone that didnt do anything. Nothing in the rule book says you have too help your oponent with the rules.

This isnt a nice guys contest. Thie is playing too win. And you watch the game and the rules.

And its your responsability too call a foul. Not your opponent calling a foul on himself.
Artie, for years youve said all your cared about was getting the money. Thats who you are but that does mean everyone who play the game feels the same way and it doesnt mean that a player who calls a foul on himself is a sucker. Rather it means he is a man that can be trusted, a man with integrity. To a lot of people that is very important, more important than losing a ball or losing a game.

John asked a question and he got a few response. its his decision how he chooses to play. Keith
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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beatle said:
too each his own. i am a cold blooded hustler at times but i feel it is my job to always have a stellar rep. my opponent knows he can go to the can and come back and he gets the right count.

if i scratch i put one up with out anyone saying a word. i expect the same from my opponent. if he plays the other way i watch him like a hawk.

if it is okay to not call one on yourself then it follows that every time you scratch that may not be clear you should quickly shoot again so you miss the penalty. is that okay as well.

in a tournament i feel it is entirely different as there are srict rules and sportsmanship isnt involved. as long as you do not violate the rules its fair game.

I played Bugs a lot off times . We never did anything against each other. We never checket the rack. We never would sleeop balls , And we never called a foull on each other.

I paly the same way. I played John And I went too the bath room I told him he could shoot. I no who I was playing. And I dont win by taking shots or makeing false clams.

But just because I dont do anything that does not mean that someone who is. That didnt breack no rules. And the player slepte it. I still make the correct choice.

And if a player sleeps his responsability. Its that persons faulte. Its not the players responsability toogive himself up. And help the other player.

Just like if a person cant win and looses a lot off money. its nobodys faulte but the person who lost the money. If he wats too be a fool or a sucker.

Then so be it. If he wants too give his money away. He is the person doing it. He made the choice too play. We have too be responsable for our mistakes.

We are not responsable forother peoples mistakes. We are responsable for our mistakes. And in life some mistakes we make we get away with .

And we call it luck. We cannont be held accountable for what another person is suposse too do.

Just like if I throw a winning ticket away and i thought it lost. Nobody id responsable but me.

And have have done that more then once. It happines in the casinos and race books. And even droping money out off our pocket.

If I drop 1 hundred dollaer bill. And someone picks it up. They didnt do anything wrong. I made the mistake. And if I get lucky enough too get it back.

I give them 10 or 20 dollars But if they would have keepte it. They didnt do
anything dishonest. Im the fool for droping it.

Or if I play pool and my opponent foules and I dont see it. Its all on me. Integraty has nothing too do with my stupitity.

If someone goes too the bath room and tells me too shoot and I Foul. Then Its my responsability and other players too.

Too make the right call. Because you are bonding a agreemont with trust.

And thatsa different sercomestance. And when a player tells mre too shoot I never shoot tell he gets back.

Because I dont want no dought on weather my shot was legele or not. Because a sweather mite tell him that I cheated him while he was in the bath room and I shot and even moved a ball with my hand.

I dont want no dought in the players mind that I am playing. And I will never shoot tell he comes back. And thats how I feel. And thats doing the wright thing taken all the dought out what happened.
 

newfosgatesucks

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Seriously consider the consequences of implementing this rule - something as little as a player creating a distraction, a fan distracting, or for instance someone bringing a drink to a player can cause the distraction needed to let an error slip judgement. It is not a PROFESSIONAL players duty to forgo a drink of water during play to abide by the proposed rules there. It IS your duty to see it all happen when playing un-reff'ed, or matching up, which is all amateur - to my knowledge the pro tour does not sponsor or promote gambling.

A professional sport requires a professional setting.

For the record, I agree in full with Dennis with that opinion, when gambling, in amateur events, and in any setting where a ref is not an option. However I fully believe it is to the integrity of the SPORT at a professional level, that you call fouls on yourself. I am VERY firm on this, and know of two times I myself let it go in nine ball after an opponent misses, leaves you hooked, you kick two rails, hit the ball, and it lays up 1/16 from the rail.

My very shot itself created the distraction - the excitement in the railbirds and clapping- YES it is his ultimate responsibility, but there are situations where the situation is bigger than the player. The true greats speak with their cue. You MUST facilitate that in any professional event.
 

newfosgatesucks

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How many players call a foul here? Literally, do you expect a player to leave the table, wait for opponent to select a shot, interrupt and say "Let me see if it is frozen" Here? HERE?
[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AbFP2PWaN3QcQp2UbFP2UbNL3UTwg2kWaN2kbFl2kagg2kQIx@[/CUETABLE]

A ref catches this. A player will not 99 percent of the time - he just sees a straight down the rail shot, no threat of a foul , he is just hoping it misses. But Now, You would be STRAIGHT IN on game ball. Refs are trained. Players are not, for this type of situation.

A player needs to be able to relax and focus on HIS inning at the table. That is the perk of ANY professional sporting event. There are literally dozens more of overlooked situations, a hand full of which can slip by a top professional.

But now be reasonalbe and HONEST...would you know to be on your toes for a potential foul waiting for this shot - PROBABLY not. And this is how we judge PROFESSIONAL EVENTS!!!!
 

newfosgatesucks

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BTW, this is my resume for applying to be a ref. I'll do it for 25,000 and expenses. Come on, poverty is 27,000....Let me be impoverished and help the game out.:D
 

Cowboy Dennis

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beatle said:
too each his own. i am a cold blooded hustler at times but i feel it is my job to always have a stellar rep. my opponent knows he can go to the can and come back and he gets the right count. This thread has nothing to do with the theft of balls while oppo is away.

if i scratch i put one up with out anyone saying a word. i expect the same from my opponent. if he plays the other way i watch him like a hawk.Watching like a hawk is your duty and responsibility when it's not your inning.

if it is okay to not call one on yourself then it follows that every time you scratch that may not be clear you should quickly shoot again so you miss the penalty. is that okay as well.This is simply ludicrous.

in a tournament i feel it is entirely different as there are srict rules and sportsmanship isnt involved. as long as you do not violate the rules its fair game. From SactownTom: In the rules, the non-shooter is suppose to make the calls.
sappo said:
Artie, for years youve said all your cared about was getting the money. Thats who you are but that does mean everyone who play the game feels the same way and it doesnt mean that a player who calls a foul on himself is a sucker. Rather it means he is a man that can be trusted, a man with integrity. To a lot of people that is very important, more important than losing a ball or losing a game.

John asked a question and he got a few response. its his decision how he chooses to play. Keith
I'm disappointed that anyone would equate this with being dishonest or lacking integrity or not being trustworthy. Let me be perfectly clear here:I will not let YOU call a foul on yourself and spot a ball up. You can put it in your pocket, in your ear or in the trunk of your car but it is not going on the spot. It is my job to call fouls on you when I'm in the chair and I will do my job.

SactownTom said:
Often the shooter isn't aware of the foul that has been committed.

And visa versa;He may be watching the Object ball to see if it hit a rail and it doesn't but the cue ball did. He calls a foul on himself and it is a wrong call.

Most players will call the obvious fouls because they think they are suppose to. In the rules, the non-shooter is suppose to make the calls.
Gambling seriously or with strangers aside, if I was playing a longtime opponent who I knew well or cheaply with good acquaintances I would and have called a foul on myself and spotted a ball up. Usually what would follow is an explanation to my opponent for the spotted ball. Nobody yet has refused me spotting a ball up.

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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First things first. Your opp should never ever leave the table Unless It's his shot.( gambling or tourny) Most big tournys, the director will MAKE you go ahead and shoot while He's gone( If It's your shot) to the bathrrom or smoking or whatever.I have had that happen quite a few times. Here's alittle story that happened to me one time...I'm playing this punk and he doesn't know the rules.(I don't know, he must have missed the players meeting or something like that) well he thinks he going to pull some ole stall move and goes to the bathroom while It's my shot.He didn't know (but I did) that I could go ahead and shoot. As soon as he walked away I ran to the director and said can you come over here and rack these balls for me? He said sure thing! We need to keep this tourny moving. This was a 9 ball tourny race to 7.
I think It was like 2 to 2 when he left the table but when he got back, you should have seen the look on his face when he looked up at the score and I was on the hill.LOL It was PRICELESS!!!

I don't know how many of you have played with the real pros or not,But you better not be wating around for them to call fouls on themselves. I grew up playing with all the pros that are around my age and older.(Most all of them)
Let me tell ya...I learned the hard way Is all I'm going to say.

Now I didn't say that If I fudge the cueball first and then go ahead and shoot and hope I don't get caught. To me that Is not even close to what I started with this thread. Just to be clear about this I would never ever cheat. But what I'm talking about Is not about cheating. Thanks,John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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newfosgatesucks said:
How many players call a foul here? Literally, do you expect a player to leave the table, wait for opponent to select a shot, interrupt and say "Let me see if it is frozen" Here? HERE?
[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AbFP2PWaN3QcQp2UbFP2UbNL3UTwg2kWaN2kbFl2kagg2kQIx@[/CUETABLE]

A ref catches this. A player will not 99 percent of the time - he just sees a straight down the rail shot, no threat of a foul , he is just hoping it misses. But Now, You would be STRAIGHT IN on game ball. Refs are trained. Players are not, for this type of situation.

A player needs to be able to relax and focus on HIS inning at the table. That is the perk of ANY professional sporting event. There are literally dozens more of overlooked situations, a hand full of which can slip by a top professional.

But now be reasonalbe and HONEST...would you know to be on your toes for a potential foul waiting for this shot - PROBABLY not. And this is how we judge PROFESSIONAL EVENTS!!!!
NFS,

Almost without exception, any player that I've ever gambled with would call the 1 ball frozen before he sat down. If he didn't and I executed the shot the way you've shown it would not be a foul because the ball was not called frozen and confirmed by me as such. In order for a ball to be considered frozen it must be called frozen by your opponent and confirmed by you. The 1 ball is not frozen until both players agree it is frozen.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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John Brumback said:
First things first. Your opp should never ever leave the table Unless It's his shot.( gambling or tourny) Most big tournys, the director will MAKE you go ahead and shoot while He's gone( If It's your shot) to the bathrrom or smoking or whatever.I have had that happen quite a few times. Here's alittle story that happened to me one time...I'm playing this punk and he doesn't know the rules.(I don't know, he must have missed the players meeting or something like that) well he thinks he going to pull some ole stall move and goes to the bathroom while It's my shot.He didn't know (but I did) that I could go ahead and shoot. As soon as he walked away I ran to the director and said can you come over here and rack these balls for me? He said sure thing! We need to keep this tourny moving. This was a 9 ball tourny race to 7.
I think It was like 2 to 2 when he left the table but when he got back, you should have seen the look on his face when he looked up at the score and I was on the hill.LOL It was PRICELESS!!!

I don't know how many of you have played with the real pros or not,But you better not be wating around for them to call fouls on themselves. I grew up playing with all the pros that are around my age and older.(Most all of them)
Let me tell ya...I learned the hard way Is all I'm going to say.

Now I didn't say that If I fudge the cueball first and then go ahead and shoot and hope I don't get caught. To me that Is not even close to what I started with this thread. Just to be clear about this I would never ever cheat. But what I'm talking about Is not about cheating. Thanks,John B.
John, now you're posting at the same exact minute as me? People will talk:p .

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
NFS,

Almost without exception, any player that I've ever gambled with would call the 1 ball frozen before he sat down. If he didn't and I executed the shot the way you've shown it would not be a foul because the ball was not called frozen and confirmed by me as such. In order for a ball to be considered frozen it must be called frozen by your opponent and confirmed by you. The 1 ball is not frozen until both players agree it is frozen.

Dennis
Yes!! you are very correct again!! John B.
 

gulfportdoc

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John Brumback said:
This might be a dumb ? or It might have been gone over,But anyway....
What if your opp Is not paying attention and you don't hit a rail after contact,
do you call It on yourself or not? I have wondered about this for a long time.
Thanks,John B.
Well, a foul is supposed to be called. A foul is a foul, whether or not it's seen by the opponent. Many guys will not call a foul on themselves, and I can certainly see why they wouldn't, especially if there is money on the line.

However, not admitting to a foul will affect some guys pyschologically. In my case it seems as though every time I've not called a foul on myself when I know it was a foul, it seems to have risen up and bit me on the backside later.

I don't know whether it's guilt or "karma", but some guys will end up paying the price. So I think that it depends upon a guy's character and state of mind.

Doc
 

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
John, now you're posting at the same exact minute as me? People will talk:p .

Dennis
I do not care.I really like how you think. I'm gonna be riding your coat tail
all the way through this.Thanks ole buddy,hehehehe John B.
 

John Brumback

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
John Brumback said:
Sappo,It's not about "getting away with It" And I have alot of (Integrity)
It's not cheating or anything thing close to that. I'm sorry you feel that way. John B.[/QUOTE

Your playing too win. Not to get the nicest guy off the year award. People loose all the time because they make mistakes.

If a player is not watching and something happines its not Johns faulte or responsability too tell the player anything. Its the players responsability too watch the game.

And if he cant do that he souldnt be playing. Ansking someone else to do hid responsability too help him win. Its not Johs fault.

But the other players. For nor doing what he is supoose too do. I guess if you have a choice your life or someone elses life.

You shoild die for him for integraty. Even if it was your faulte in the accedent.

In the real world we are responsable for our mistakes. And so is the other person. And the responsability is too look out for ourselves.

And if a person sleeps a mistake that you made but it was his responsability. To call it and see it. And thier are people who loose thier money.

Because they are fools waiting to get beat. Thier are a millions off them in the Casinos every day.

And playing pool with some one you can beat fof 10 thousand you should have integraty and not beat him. Because he has no chance too win.

Itegraty is one thing being a fool is another. And a fool and his money soon depart.

And their are millions off fools getting taken every day. Look at the car salesman. New and used. How mant people loose every day that has no chance too win.

Look at Rosse he never won. After 15 million dollaers. Where is the integraty. And a person sleeps a scratch. Its not on John its on the other player.

One more just too make this clear. You play gin rummy and you discard his gin card. He doesnt pick it up and it was his gin card. Should you tell him.

You bet a sports bet in the casino after your team wins the game. You go to collect youre money. And the teller tells you thats the loosing team on your ticket.

You loose. Not doing what is your responsability in a game is all on you not the player. Who got away with the scratch. Its got nothing too do with integraty.


And John said it real nice Im sorry you feel that way. I would have told you you deserve it and hope you learned something from it.

Pay attention to the game and the stupitity wont show up. Thier are no excuses you either watch the game.

And see what is going on. Or its simple if you cant protect yourself ion a game. Why are you playing .

You have no buisness gambling or playing in a tournement. If you dont no the rules or protect whats your responsability too do.

Maybe U should tell you youre shooting in my pocket too. Its up too the player. Too watch the game and if a rule is brocken.

Tell the player what he did. And he pays for his mistake.

But you want me to rat on myself. And call it integraty. I call that a Idiote. Too rat on youreself.

John has lots off integraty. In fact that might be his weakness being too nice.

I say it just the way it is. If a sucker wants too get beat then so be it.

He has a choice to play or not too play. He has a choice too call the foul or not too call it.

THe mistake was made by the other person not calling the foul. John didnt do anything out off line.

If the other player would have called a foul . John would have spotted a
ball. But the player didnt do what he was supose too.

Thats the other players faulte not Johns And you are putting the blame on the wrong person.

Put it on the idiote that deserves it. Not on someone that didnt do anything. Nothing in the rule book says you have too help your oponent with the rules.

This isnt a nice guys contest. Thie is playing too win. And you watch the game and the rules.

And its your responsability too call a foul. Not your opponent calling a foul on himself.
Artie That Is one of THE best posts I have read of yours ..so far.John B.
 
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