Break, ball in hand, 8-8

BRLongArm

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What are your thoughts on this game? What is this equivalent to? A player got 8-6 at Buffalo's and lost a bunch of money to Dennis O. If Dennis was playing him a regular game, what would the handicap have to be to equal break, ball in hand, 8-6?
 

youngstownkid

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I bet Dennis can give him 13-3 and still come out on top, but this way the guy has one chance at the beginning of every game to take a deep breath and try to run 6 before he gets suffocated... so it's more fun for the guy paying him off.

yk
 

cincy_kid

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That's a good question and one someone will probably have some good insight on. Question: when you say ball in hand do you mean anywhere on the table or behind the line like after a scratch?

My 2 cents: Getting the break in 1p I think is worth at least 1 ball if not 2 (so let's say 1.5 balls). Getting ball in hand (if anywhere on the table after the break), I would think is worth at least a couple of balls. Plus, if you know you are getting ball in hand after the break, you can adjust your break style a little bit ot make sure you are breaking quite a few loose from the stack towards your pocket, not worrying about where the CB ends up.

So add all that up and to me it seems like that spot would be about the same as 10-6 (maybe even 9-5). This is just off the top of my head and thinking out loud.

I am curious to see what others think.
 

gulfportdoc

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What are your thoughts on this game? What is this equivalent to? A player got 8-6 at Buffalo's and lost a bunch of money to Dennis O. If Dennis was playing him a regular game, what would the handicap have to be to equal break, ball in hand, 8-6?
Joe, do you mean the guy would get to break the balls, then have BIH whether he made one or not? Can he smash break them? That's a yuuge spot, unless the guy is a very poor player. In that case if he can't run out from the open break shot then Dennis would have him.

Cardone would have to weigh in here about an equivalent spot. But it probably would have to be something like YoungstownKid suggested.

~Doc
 

sheldon

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Obviously, it's going to depend greatly on ability.
If the player getting the spot can run 30 or more playing the ghost, it's going to be a huge spot. If they can run less than 20, they're still going to be robbed by a pro.
 

cincy_kid

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Yea, I don't think its as big of a spot as 13-3. For my skill level I would much rather have 10-5 than this spot but then again I can't run balls very well ;)
 

LSJohn

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Sounds like at least 13-3 to me. I think he has no chance at 12-4 if he gets robbed at the 8-6 game.

But I think you have something up your sleeve, like maybe a bet about how we'd answer. If I wanted the answer to this question, you are one of the first people I would ask. If you don't know, who would give a shit what I think? :D
 

BRLongArm

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It is break, ball in hand anywhere after the break. The player was experimenting while betting 4-800 a game. He broke them soft...he got three and lost. He broke them hard..he got 3 or four and lost. From watching it, he has to run 4 and move them up table or make 5 to have a chance. He only ran out 5 times and they played 38 games. I think the guy won about 12 of 38 games. It's worth a lot. But it's different than a regular game because he often ends his inning by missing and selling out eight balls. For the pro to run them is not tough. It looked like it was worth about 10-4.
 
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cincy_kid

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Pretty much what sheldon said. I mean, if the opponent can run balls its a big spot, if not, then not so much.

John, you would rather have break and then ball in hand after the break than 13-3? That surprises me!
 

youngstownkid

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I figure it's worth 4 balls maybe, so from there we're playing 8-2, and I'm sorry but I can't win playing Dennis at 8-2. He would win easy by just not taking chances and killing me with CB placement.

yk
 
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LSJohn

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John, you would rather have break and then ball in hand after the break than 13-3? That surprises me!
When I try to evaluate the top half-dozen or so guys, I may not be as impressed as I should be by the number of balls they need to make after #8.

It seems to me that a guy who can't average 4 balls with the ball-in-hand deal, can't win at 12-4. So, where does that leave us? If he can average 4 balls, I like 8-2 better than 12-4. If he only averages 3, 13-3 is obviously better, but is 12-4 better than 8-3? It sure looks like it, but as I said, those extra balls for those top guys just don't seem like much to me.

If the game progresses to the point that one of these guys has 8 balls, I think he's going to be able to control the game the rest of the way against a much weaker player most of the time. My guess is that the games I win at 13-3 are going to be by a pretty wide margin games I win before he gets to 8. One more thing; at 13-3, he breaks half the time, and gets first shot after my break the other half. What is the combined value of those two things?

Just some thoughts that might be relevant. I'm not convinced either way.
 

cincy_kid

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I figure it's worth 4 balls maybe, so from there we're playing 8-2, and I'm sorry but I can't win playing Dennis at 8-2. He would win easy by just not taking chances and killing me with CB placement.

yk
The post is about break, ball in hand and then playing even 8-8.

8-6 is what he was asking if that spot was equivalent to.

I agree with you that I think its worth about 4 balls or so. That's why I said I would put that spot at about 9-5 (maybe 9-4 depending on the skill of the person getting the spot).

Still waiting to hear what some others might think though.
 

youngstownkid

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Break, ball in hand, 8-8

The post is about break, ball in hand and then playing even 8-8.

8-6 is what he was asking if that spot was equivalent to.

I agree with you that I think its worth about 4 balls or so. That's why I said I would put that spot at about 9-5 (maybe 9-4 depending on the skill of the person getting the spot).

Still waiting to hear what some others might think though.
I saw the title said 8-8, but the post said 8-6 so I wasn't sure. My baaad!

yk
 

lll

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i think the ball in hand spot is worth whatever the person being spotted can run on average
ie if he can only run 2 balls its not worth more than 8-6
if he can run 4 balls its worth 8-4
i am not saying that 8-4 or 8-6 is a fair game for each player
just that the spot is worth what the player can use it for
i agree with john that making the better player go to a higher number if the skill level is too great is not as great as it sounds
this just an opinion based on no experience
would be interesting to hear dr.bill/tom/hacker's take on it
or anyone who has given or taken that spot
 

Jeff sparks

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Being the receiver of the spot, I would want to be able to run 3 balls easily and sometimes 4 or 5 in order to have a chance with the following spots. This would require a player of Dennis O's ability to limit the spot to a minimum of 5 on the receivers end, or possibly 6 if the other end of the spot was high enough, say 10/5 or 15/6... This would equate to a spot of about 10/2 or 15/3...

I have never played it but I've heard about it being played and it's not as strong a spot for the weaker player as it seems because of his frequency of unforced errors, and lack of knowledge.

Once the break and ball in hand is over, then it becomes a battle for table supremacy and position, which in most cases (95% I'd guess) the skilled player is going to win the first shot and establish a superior ball position. That said, for the weaker player to have any chance to win would require him to get in the 1 hole or out perhaps 40% of the time from the break. Then it seems like the game would be fairly close... Jmo
 
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