Best Alltime One Pocket Players

lll

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artie to comment on your more recent post. i play tennis and in tennis they always talk about "percentage" tennis versus going for winners. usually the person who makes the least unforced errors wins. guys like james blake can wow thre crowds when they are on but they dont crack the top five. so if i understand your approach it is to play within your level to execute what you can, dont give the guy a chance to be offensive, and be aggressive when it is a high percentage to do so. am i close?
 

Skin

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
...Witch people dont realize how important mistakes are. Its the difference between winning and losing. And Believe me you cannot spot a good player 2 mistakes a game and win. Even if you run 8 and out a third of the games. Mistakes is the name of any game or sport.And its great that some one can perform magic I would rather play them then a player who doesnt make any mistakes. Those are the hardest players to beat.And that is why I beat a lot of great players because the made to many mistakes. I didnt out shoot them and I didnt out bank them so I must have done something to beat them.I hope my wrighting doesnt disgurage you but incourage you.
Artie, I watched a partners one-pocket game tonight and I told myself, I am only going to look at this game in one way, the way Artie pointed out - what are the mistakes being made. It was very enlightening. I don't know much, but even I could see that many shots these guys were shooting were mistakes. And most of it was because they weren't thinking farther ahead than the shot they were shooting or they were getting impatient. Even when they made a ball, they sometimes would benefit the opponent more than they would themself. You're giving some great tips on how to think about the game for folks here who want to learn. I appreciate it.

Skin
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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lll said:
artie to comment on your more recent post. i play tennis and in tennis they always talk about "percentage" tennis versus going for winners. usually the person who makes the least unforced errors wins. guys like james blake can wow thre crowds when they are on but they dont crack the top five. so if i understand your approach it is to play within your level to execute what you can, dont give the guy a chance to be offensive, and be aggressive when it is a high percentage to do so. am i close?
Next time you watch a football game or baseball game and the game is close the team that makes the mistake will loose. But we dont no ahead of time what team will make the mistake. In one pocket you can put a player in a possision were he will make the mistake. But when the person makes the mistake you have to take advantage of the mistake and punish him for his mistake and keep him locked up and dont let him out were he can shoot at a give up or put you in a trap. Once you are on offens you have to learn how to stay on offense and keep your oponent on deffense. If I see what some one is doing I could tell you whether it is right or wrong. And why Next time you watch a good one pocket game. Just keep track of how many mistakes a player makes. And you have to play the whole game mistake free. You can wright this down If two great players are playing each other the player that does not make any mistakes will win. How can you beat a player if he does not make any mistakes. This is one of the most important things to learn. Not to make any mistakes. And next time you play count your mistakes and you will see what I am talking about. And if you can improve on your mistakes you will be a better player. And you need to keep improving on that more and more till you play the whole game mistake free.And this plays a very big part in improving your game. And I have tought myself how to play mistake free and that is why I would have beat any player 6 ahead playing one pocket. And their is not one player that can do that nobody. And this is a big help if you want to im[prove your game and their is a lot more to the correct way to play one pocket. But I have given you a very important part of one pocket. And People will start playing and asking themselves about their mistakes and count how many mistakes the make in a game. And if you can correct that it will improve your game. And you can use this in all games and sports.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Skin said:
Artie, I watched a partners one-pocket game tonight and I told myself, I am only going to look at this game in one way, the way Artie pointed out - what are the mistakes being made. It was very enlightening. I don't know much, but even I could see that many shots these guys were shooting were mistakes. And most of it was because they weren't thinking farther ahead than the shot they were shooting or they were getting impatient. Even when they made a ball, they sometimes would benefit the opponent more than they would themself. You're giving some great tips on how to think about the game for folks here who want to learn. I appreciate it.

Skin
I can tell you the more you watch and learn the more you will see the mistakes. And one mistake can cost you the game with a great player. BUt keep watching and learning. And you will grow and the great thing will be that you will see and understand youself . What is going on in the game. And If you no what to do and the other person doesnt you have the edge. And dont just relie on your shooting and banking and position to improve yor game but through Knowledge and understanding. And again use it in all games. You want to play the whole game correctly and mistake free. I have given out more then I should but I did it because your respose sounded senser and it didnt soud like bs so I gave you a big part and head start to learning the correct way to play one pocket and any game. And any problem showes up keep practicing tell you learn it. And find the correct saloution to the problem. If everyone learns and can do this their game will improve. Even if you are a beginer or a champion. Keep watching and learning and you will no more than the champions. Because you will see it and you will see their mistake. But I hope this will help your game and will make it more injoyabale and fun.Knowing what you are doing will make you stronger and better. And if you train yourself you will see the mistakes very clear. This is your Chrismas present. Use it wisely.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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lll said:
artie to comment on your more recent post. i play tennis and in tennis they always talk about "percentage" tennis versus going for winners. usually the person who makes the least unforced errors wins. guys like james blake can wow thre crowds when they are on but they dont crack the top five. so if i understand your approach it is to play within your level to execute what you can, dont give the guy a chance to be offensive, and be aggressive when it is a high percentage to do so. am i close?
YOU HAVE TO CONTROL THE GAME. THats what the Miamie Dolpines did when the wen undefeated with Sonca and Kick. THe played a control game. And the were one of the best teames ever to do that. THe might have played the whole game without a mistake. And their run game controled the whole game. And that Super bowel was not a very exciting game. But dull boring and controling. And thats how you want to play mistake free. And to do that you have to play a controled game. If you are allways playing safe and on deffense then you are playing the game the wrong way. And need to correct it. You have control and you have the choice off what to shoot. Think And Think tell you figure it out.
 

Skin

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Artie Bodendorfer said:
I can tell you the more you watch and learn the more you will see the mistakes. And one mistake can cost you the game with a great player. BUt keep watching and learning. And you will grow and the great thing will be that you will see and understand youself . What is going on in the game. And If you no what to do and the other person doesnt you have the edge. And dont just relie on your shooting and banking and position to improve yor game but through Knowledge and understanding. And again use it in all games. You want to play the whole game correctly and mistake free. I have given out more then I should but I did it because your respose sounded senser and it didnt soud like bs so I gave you a big part and head start to learning the correct way to play one pocket and any game. And any problem showes up keep practicing tell you learn it. And find the correct saloution to the problem. If everyone learns and can do this their game will improve. Even if you are a beginer or a champion. Keep watching and learning and you will no more than the champions. Because you will see it and you will see their mistake. But I hope this will help your game and will make it more injoyabale and fun.Knowing what you are doing will make you stronger and better. And if you train yourself you will see the mistakes very clear. This is your Chrismas present. Use it wisely.
"Knowledge is power." - Sir Francis Bacon, 16th-17th century philosopher who devised the scientific method, which made modern science possible.

Thanks for your reply and sharing some of your knowledge, Sir Artie! What you wrote makes perfect sense to me. I saw it with my own eyes last night. Now, I will try to add it to my game. Thanks again.


Skin
 
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lll

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artie thank you for my christmas present also.your responces to me and skin will be of great help. i will continue to try to learn to play mistake free , learn the correct answer to problems,try to find the correct solution, and control the game from start to finish.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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lll said:
artie thank you for my christmas present also.your responces to me and skin will be of great help. i will continue to try to learn to play mistake free , learn the correct answer to problems,try to find the correct solution, and control the game from start to finish.
Become the greatest you can be. And take it to the highest level and the more you learn the more powerfull you will be and feel. The game is all about you when your at the table it does not matter who you atre playing. If you do your work and complete it and complete it correctly nobody can stop you Remember when its you turn at the table its all you and what you do the more you learn the harder it will be for your opponent to do anything. And remember to think and not make any mistakes. That is your goal in any pool game to play mistake free and nobody will be able to beat you. Good luck and the effort you put in will be your resulte. And you will see and understand why you lost and you can change your mistakes and not repeat them.Learning will also make you feel good about yourself and the game. You can do this in any game. And never give up and be the best that you can be. AND GIVE 100% and that is your goal.
 

gbru

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best ever opinion only!

best ever opinion only!

WOW! I'm sure glad this debate on best ever got started. Artie is really starting to open up and give away some of his strategical insight into how this game should be played.

Soon all that will be left is learning to be patient and capable of grinding away for untold hours and having a love of the game of pool in general in the vein of Lassiter or Mosconi.

And, of course in order to be considered as the (No 1) one pocket player one must: be able to shoot like Harold Worst, Mike Carella or Strickland; learn all you can about the diamond system and billiard play like Artie, Shorty, Patch, Worst or Bloomdahl; perfect your kicking abilities like Grady, Ronnie, Patch and Earl Heisler; learn the aspects of banking like Bugs, Freddie or Eddie Taylor; dwell on the art of lock-up and table control exhibited by Artie, Heisler, Clem, or Lingo; possess and inordinate understanding of the game similar to Squirrel, Artie, Incordona, Kelly, and of host of others; possess the art of creativity like Grady, Shriver, or Kelly: be able to run 8 and out like Rags, Ronnie, Squirrel or Kelly; have a clear conscience and a mind empty of vain thoughts like Weannie Beannie, Steve Cook, Patch, and others "knowing" you've never dumped anyone or been bought off; execute safety play and position with the skill of Mosconi, Ed Kelly, Bustamante or Ralph Soquet; possess a demeanor of calm and patience like Clem, Heisler, or Cliff Joyner; have nerves of steal by learning not to idolize money or care about being rich and famous; possess the concentration of a zen master and......... "be lucky and get better rolls than Grady".

I know there are a lot of other players that have unique and individual qualities that I have not mentioned. Most of the players that I have listed above I know only by having read or heard stories about them. And I have tried to relate their best skills mostly from my imagination and again, stories from others. I also accept your statement Artie that the field of one pocket players was bigger 35 years ago.

And, I have to make one correction to your earlier reply. I never said Efren could give Kelly, Worst, Ronnie, Bugs or Taylor 2 balls. I said 2 balls to the players that I had listed. With the exception of Grady in his peak.

In conclusion..........and in my imaginative opinion, I think Efren exhibits more of the above listed qualities as a whole than any other one pocket player past or present.

So I still vote Efren as my choice of top one pocket player.

And thanks again Artie for opening up and sharing some of your deep thoughts on this outstanding game.

george
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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gbru said:
WOW! I'm sure glad this debate on best ever got started. Artie is really starting to open up and give away some of his strategical insight into how this game should be played.

Soon all that will be left is learning to be patient and capable of grinding away for untold hours and having a love of the game of pool in general in the vein of Lassiter or Mosconi.

And, of course in order to be considered as the (No 1) one pocket player one must: be able to shoot like Harold Worst, Mike Carella or Strickland; learn all you can about the diamond system and billiard play like Artie, Shorty, Patch, Worst or Bloomdahl; perfect your kicking abilities like Grady, Ronnie, Patch and Earl Heisler; learn the aspects of banking like Bugs, Freddie or Eddie Taylor; dwell on the art of lock-up and table control exhibited by Artie, Heisler, Clem, or Lingo; possess and inordinate understanding of the game similar to Squirrel, Artie, Incordona, Kelly, and of host of others; possess the art of creativity like Grady, Shriver, or Kelly: be able to run 8 and out like Rags, Ronnie, Squirrel or Kelly; have a clear conscience and a mind empty of vain thoughts like Weannie Beannie, Steve Cook, Patch, and others "knowing" you've never dumped anyone or been bought off; execute safety play and position with the skill of Mosconi, Ed Kelly, Bustamante or Ralph Soquet; possess a demeanor of calm and patience like Clem, Heisler, or Cliff Joyner; have nerves of steal by learning not to idolize money or care about being rich and famous; possess the concentration of a zen master and......... "be lucky and get better rolls than Grady".

I know there are a lot of other players that have unique and individual qualities that I have not mentioned. Most of the players that I have listed above I know only by having read or heard stories about them. And I have tried to relate their best skills mostly from my imagination and again, stories from others. I also accept your statement Artie that the field of one pocket players was bigger 35 years ago.

And, I have to make one correction to your earlier reply. I never said Efren could give Kelly, Worst, Ronnie, Bugs or Taylor 2 balls. I said 2 balls to the players that I had listed. With the exception of Grady in his peak.

In conclusion..........and in my imaginative opinion, I think Efren exhibits more of the above listed qualities as a whole than any other one pocket player past or present.

So I still vote Efren as my choice of top one pocket player.

And thanks again Artie for opening up and sharing some of your deep thoughts on this outstanding game.

george
I would like to ask you a quistion who would you take in a game the best shooter and best posision player and the player with the best touch or the player that playes without a mistake. I would like to her a lot of responses on this not just one person. I have also watched a lot of Efren one pocket taps and I did not see too many eight and out. And I watched a lot of taps and I didnt see to many 8 and outs and playing 6 games ahead with some one that realy knowes how to play their will even be less eight and outs. THe eight and outs usualy happen against agressive shooters like Ronie Efrin corn bread Jersy red Scott Frost Shanan Daulton and shooters. It does not happen as often against tight players. And in a long session you will even see less. But the only way any of this can be proven is by playing 6 ahead and if the bet their own money you will even see less 8 and outs. And I have watched a lot of taps and I seen how many mistakes were made in the games. And Varner and Hopkins can run 8 and out as good as anyone. And the will make less mistakes. And if you set up a tap with two great players you will see that the player with the most mistakes will lose. In a shooting game Efrin would be the favorite. But in moving games that will all change. And a player like Guista Montie should have a big edge playing nine ball and eight ball but not in one pocket. GUsta montie should be the favorite against Efrin playing nine ball because of his brake. And I watched them play each other and wondered why that didnt hold up. If the ability is close to even the person without the mistakes should win. Does Efrin bet his own money when he gambles with players. I said betting your own money makes a big difference in the game. A free shoot takes the preasure of of you to lose your money. And If you watch the tapes and see all the mistakes that are made you will be shocked. I will bet on the player that will make the least mistakes. And what would help one pocket player a lot and the game if all those great champion players would explain the game and what the do. Or dont the no and cant even explain what the do. If the cant explain what the are doing then how can you belive that the are the best. A great player can explain what he is doing and if he cant explain it that means he doesnt no what he is doing. But people have their opion and thats who the will pick weither the are wright or wrong.
 

Deeman

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I have to pick the man who makes the fewest mistakes. Even the best shooter misses, careful players have more control over their "mistakes."
 

gbru

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best ever! opinion only!

best ever! opinion only!

I understand a little bit about 8 and out not happening that often, especially against a mover opponent and....... playing on tight pockets, which seems to be left out of the equation lately. The pockets today are merciless as compared to the old 5" pockets of old. I never meant to imply that Efren runs 8 and out every third or fourth time he's at the table. I only compared a few players like Kelly, Rags,Squirrel and Ronnie because of what I've heard about their abilities in 9 ball and other games, as well as one pocket. I know there are many other players that I left out like Hopkins, Varner etc. I was only trying to make a point Artie. And remember it's only an opinion from someone who admits he has a lot to learn from this complex game.

As far as Efren betting his own money I think he does most of the time or at least he has someone managing it with him. I'm not sure though. When he first came to America I understand he was being backed most of the time.

Anyway, considering Efren, that is one of my reasons that I pick him. Like I said in my post, I don't think the money bothers Efren like it does most players because he can take it or leave it. All he wants is enough to get a bowl of rice and some good fish (I may be exaggerating a little, I'm trying to make a point) and have some money left to help someone less fortunate at the hotel or from his country. That quality alone puts undo pressure on his opponents, especially people who know him best like, Bustamonte, Pagulyan, Luat, Parica, etc. I think that's why Bustamante often loses to Efren. I'm sure you know a psychological edge is a terrible thing. It opens up the "fear factor" to new levels. From what I gather from observation and hearsay Ronnie Allen was a master of it, only in a different manner. From what I've heard Ronnie talked a good game and was successful at sharking a lot of people. I've personally seen Ronnie do things at the table that I didn't approve of but then again, I've also heard stories how he would spend half of his winnings on his friends and was very generous and also had a big heart. He also loved to spend money on high living. But that's all part of the American culture. I've never heard of Efren ever trying to shark anyone and I've never heard anyone else say it either. He doesn't have to. His has too much confidence in his abilities. But then again, in the culture he comes from, for the most part, money is not their god. Not to say that it doesn't rub-off after prolonged exposure to it.

I agree with you in the regard that Efren often shoots the wrong shot as seen on the tapes. But he usually has a plan of action well in advance of the next shot. I recall Grady and Billy often commenting about some of those peculiar shots that he executes. When you can consistently baffle Grady, Billy, Freddy, Danny and other commentators you know something different is going on in his head.

Artie, I'm sure you have seen Efren shoot many shots that were the wrong shots and I'm sure they were often the "wrong shots" even if they were being measured by someone as defensive as your style. I guess it's similar to chess in that there is hardly ever just one move. There is often a better move but hardly ever just the one move. In chess you only have limited offense. But in one pocket, a "defensive mover" is more apt to say a shooter or a (shooter/mover) shot the wrong shot. But to me and others that is what makes Efren so unique. More often than not he gets away with it. Even against the greatest firepower of the day. Granted in the days gone by he may not have had the opportunity as often to shoot his game but he is a master at making a way for it to happen. And I'm sure he would adapt a little differently depending on the style and firepower of his opponent. I saw that myself when he got beat the first round of play with Billy Palmer in the 2004 Derby City. On the second round though, Efren tightened a few moves and took Palmer down rather easily.

When Squirrel was in Mobile a couple of months ago we asked him about some of the older one pocket players and to compare them to Efren. He said: "Well, he's in another class by himself'". And I've heard other players from the past say the same thing. Of course, that's just another opinion in a long list of good shooters who all have opinions themselves.

I would like to hear a lot of opinions also on the next subject. But my answer to your question on comparing best touch, best position player, best shooter or player without a mistake I would choose Efren as best touch, best position player of anyone and a very close on best shooter. Like I said mistakes are in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure Efren has made many mistakes. I never said he was perfect. But who can measure every shot. That is what makes one pocket such a great game. There is never only one shot. There may be a better shot that we can see at the moment, especially if someone is sitting in front of a screen looking from all different directions, like straight down on the table from 15 feet high and while rested and sipping a beer in a lounge chair with a remote to rewind and study the situation. I don't know if you've ever played on TV Artie (not taking anything from your game) but it must be a lot different with the TV lights and all of the other distractions not present in a one on one session with a few dozen ardent supporters in the background of your hometown pool room.

Anyway I'm tired of debating this subject. After all it's only an opinion anyway. And I enjoy seeing a lot of other good one pocket players whether they be the best or 100th best. I would rather just concentrate on my game and try to keep my mind and eyes open to continue to listen, observe and learn more about this great game and how it can be played better and in the correct fashion. And, how we can get the Chinese, the German's, the Japanese etc. to take a bigger interest in the game and start to raise the prize money up to a level that people can make a decent living without having to shark and scuff and argue every inch of the way.

Plus I've got to get my Fall garden started so I can raise some kale and chard and other greens to build my stamina for future matches. And, I need to get to work helping to rid our country of George Bush and company before they swindle us out of everything, with their unjust wars, unscrupulous bailouts and unchecked military defense programs that are siphoning away social security and the infrastructure of our country and everything else that made America the nation it once was.

Wishing all you a great day

george
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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Deeman said:
I have to pick the man who makes the fewest mistakes. Even the best shooter misses, careful players have more control over their "mistakes."
You are correct and that goes for every sport the person or team that makes the most mistakes will lose. And when we talk about great players their is not to much difference in ability. Even in sports thats why on any given day the team with the worst record can beat the team with the best record. But if you would let me bet on the team or player with the least mistakes you will win the money. The only excepion would be if the player or team are 40 % better then the other player or team then they could over come the mistakes. But every situation is different. I would like to take one mistake and eliminate what hapenes off of that mistake and bet on the other person or team Just one mistake one. And Now I will point out why it will not show up because the person he is playing will make just as many or more mistakes then Efrin so if the player playing Efrin makes as many mistakes as efrin makes. THen Efrin will destoy him because he will get more out of the mistake then you will because of his ability and position and caroms. So you see the people playing him are not even out moving him and their mistakes WILL COST THEM MORE THEN WHEN EFRIN MAKES A MISTAKE. AND thats why I said you have to play the whole game mistake free. And Efrin can not spot any good player one mistake a game especialy a major mistake. But I am wrighting this to show people that what I wrote in the beginning is the truth not just a story or BS. And You can prove it to youreself. Just watch all the cds or DVD and take away the mistakes and the other person will win the game. You can see it in a lot of taps. And I am not saying that one mistake will cost you the game. But I am saying it could cost you the game. Especialy if its near the end of the game. But if two great players play I will bet on the player who makes the least amount of mistakes. So you see if Efrin playes he might be the player who makes the least amount of mistakes. And the mistake you make will be worse for you then when Efrin makes the same mistake because he can do more at the table running out. THat is why I keep saying if you play the game mistake free and Efrin makes two mistakes. I will lay 3 to 2 that Efrin will lose that game. And in Boxing it only takes one mistake to loose the fight. What I am telling you is correct and you can belive me or not. And if you are playing some one that playes your speed of one pocket keep playing him and dont make as many mistakes as he makes and you will beat him easy. You can prove it to yourself you dont have to take my word for it. And I am not benafitting anything by telling you. I am not selling a DVD or a Cd or a book I am telling you this to help you and make you aware of what you need to do to improve your game. And you will have the biggest high of your life once you get their and understand it. And as far as the election goes I am for neither party. I am nutral and for the people and the people should have the power not the GOVERMENT. And both candadats make all these promises and what the will do and the debate against each other the waste a Zillion dollares campaining and debating.. ANd as soon as the get into office its all over THE DO WHAT THE WANT. And forget all the promises and things the said the would do. Its like me HUstling a sucker and telling them what the want to her and ten I take his money. And I have seen all their promisess and lies with other presidents. And the Republicans would do and say whatever the can to get them in office and the Democrates would do the same. I am not telling you to vote or not vote what I am telling you is look what hapens to all the things the said in their campain when the get into office. And the will do what the want. And BUsch did what he wanted and nobody stoped him and all I herd was we need a new President. Will my good people of America you Voted Busch in and you got what you voted for and I can tell you this through experience people pick more loosers than winners. But Who ever wins I will live with it and I will see what happened to all the promisess the made to become president. And the will do what the want. NOt what the people want or what the promised. Its like backing a pool player he can do what he wants with the backers money. THink about it. But no matter what anyone tells you playing one pocket mistake free is the way to go. Because we dont all shoot and bank like Harold Worst And Efrin Or Bugs or EDdie taylor so we have to adjust to OUR ABILITY. THis is very important to ajust to youre ability. And not try to do what the best players try because you have to play and shoot shoots according to yopur ability tell you learn and improve your skills. I hope you understand what I am saying. And good luck with your game and keep thinking and learning and you need to learn to have strong concentration. Take the game serious not like a joke. And remember while you are playing count your mistakes and that you should be able to iomprove on even if you have reached your shooting potential. And if you are serious about becomeing a champion then learn the correct tools and put in more houers and take it more serious and practice what will improve your game and mind. And dont just get some balls and bang them around the table because you like their colores and the way the sound. THis is not a terapy session. Its up to you what you want to be. And I am talking through my experience and I am not selling you a story. But what you have to do to become a great player. If you want it bad enough then give it 100% and go for it. YOU CAN DO IT.
 

SJDinPHX

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gbru said:
I understand a little bit about 8 and out not happening that often, especially against a mover opponent and....... playing on tight pockets, which seems to be left out of the equation lately. The pockets today are merciless as compared to the old 5" pockets of old. I never meant to imply that Efren runs 8 and out every third or fourth time he's at the table. I only compared a few players like Kelly, Rags,Squirrel and Ronnie because of what I've heard about their abilities in 9 ball and other games, as well as one pocket. I know there are many other players that I left out like Hopkins, Varner etc. I was only trying to make a point Artie. And remember it's only an opinion from someone who admits he has a lot to learn from this complex game.

As far as Efren betting his own money I think he does most of the time or at least he has someone managing it with him. I'm not sure though. When he first came to America I understand he was being backed most of the time.

Anyway, considering Efren, that is one of my reasons that I pick him. Like I said in my post, I don't think the money bothers Efren like it does most players because he can take it or leave it. All he wants is enough to get a bowl of rice and some good fish (I may be exaggerating a little, I'm trying to make a point) and have some money left to help someone less fortunate at the hotel or from his country. That quality alone puts undo pressure on his opponents, especially people who know him best like, Bustamonte, Pagulyan, Luat, Parica, etc. I think that's why Bustamante often loses to Efren. I'm sure you know a psychological edge is a terrible thing. It opens up the "fear factor" to new levels. From what I gather from observation and hearsay Ronnie Allen was a master of it, only in a different manner. From what I've heard Ronnie talked a good game and was successful at sharking a lot of people. I've personally seen Ronnie do things at the table that I didn't approve of but then again, I've also heard stories how he would spend half of his winnings on his friends and was very generous and also had a big heart. He also loved to spend money on high living. But that's all part of the American culture. I've never heard of Efren ever trying to shark anyone and I've never heard anyone else say it either. He doesn't have to. His has too much confidence in his abilities. But then again, in the culture he comes from, for the most part, money is not their god. Not to say that it doesn't rub-off after prolonged exposure to it.

I agree with you in the regard that Efren often shoots the wrong shot as seen on the tapes. But he usually has a plan of action well in advance of the next shot. I recall Grady and Billy often commenting about some of those peculiar shots that he executes. When you can consistently baffle Grady, Billy, Freddy, Danny and other commentators you know something different is going on in his head.

Artie, I'm sure you have seen Efren shoot many shots that were the wrong shots and I'm sure they were often the "wrong shots" even if they were being measured by someone as defensive as your style. I guess it's similar to chess in that there is hardly ever just one move. There is often a better move but hardly ever just the one move. In chess you only have limited offense. But in one pocket, a "defensive mover" is more apt to say a shooter or a (shooter/mover) shot the wrong shot. But to me and others that is what makes Efren so unique. More often than not he gets away with it. Even against the greatest firepower of the day. Granted in the days gone by he may not have had the opportunity as often to shoot his game but he is a master at making a way for it to happen. And I'm sure he would adapt a little differently depending on the style and firepower of his opponent. I saw that myself when he got beat the first round of play with Billy Palmer in the 2004 Derby City. On the second round though, Efren tightened a few moves and took Palmer down rather easily.

When Squirrel was in Mobile a couple of months ago we asked him about some of the older one pocket players and to compare them to Efren. He said: "Well, he's in another class by himself'". And I've heard other players from the past say the same thing. Of course, that's just another opinion in a long list of good shooters who all have opinions themselves.

I would like to hear a lot of opinions also on the next subject. But my answer to your question on comparing best touch, best position player, best shooter or player without a mistake I would choose Efren as best touch, best position player of anyone and a very close on best shooter. Like I said mistakes are in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure Efren has made many mistakes. I never said he was perfect. But who can measure every shot. That is what makes one pocket such a great game. There is never only one shot. There may be a better shot that we can see at the moment, especially if someone is sitting in front of a screen looking from all different directions, like straight down on the table from 15 feet high and while rested and sipping a beer in a lounge chair with a remote to rewind and study the situation. I don't know if you've ever played on TV Artie (not taking anything from your game) but it must be a lot different with the TV lights and all of the other distractions not present in a one on one session with a few dozen ardent supporters in the background of your hometown pool room.

Anyway I'm tired of debating this subject. After all it's only an opinion anyway. And I enjoy seeing a lot of other good one pocket players whether they be the best or 100th best. I would rather just concentrate on my game and try to keep my mind and eyes open to continue to listen, observe and learn more about this great game and how it can be played better and in the correct fashion. And, how we can get the Chinese, the German's, the Japanese etc. to take a bigger interest in the game and start to raise the prize money up to a level that people can make a decent living without having to shark and scuff and argue every inch of the way.

Plus I've got to get my Fall garden started so I can raise some kale and chard and other greens to build my stamina for future matches. And, I need to get to work helping to rid our country of George Bush and company before they swindle us out of everything, with their unjust wars, unscrupulous bailouts and unchecked military defense programs that are siphoning away social security and the infrastructure of our country and everything else that made America the nation it once was.

Wishing all you a great day

george
George,

You pulled a "movie star" move, (as they are prone to do when accepting an Oscar, see Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Di Caprio etc.) You have turned a pool forum into a platform to express YOUR political views.
As there is no NPR forum on 1P.org., I consider this a "low blow". So I will respond with MY views. I will also remind you, that you are responding to a person (Artie) who is the epitome of all the things you seem to detest.
The liberally biased media, and all of Hollywood, cannot overcome the fact that this country is, what it is, by virtue of ALL the people who were SMART ENOUGH to make money, and provide jobs. I'm talking Andrew Carnigie, J.P.Morgan, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates,
and thousands of others who saw through the liberal views that have created some of the WORST years this country has had to endure.
Yes, we are up against it again. I have never been a fan of Bush/Cheney, but I KNOW we'd be really screwed if we had a Clinton or a Carter trying to deal with our current economic problems, AND the terrorist threat.
Let's hope our next President can provide the leardership we need now, more than ever. I wish you luck with your Fall garden, but I think you need to let the "Big Boy's" deal with our financial situation. Protecting our entitlements will not get it. Do you really want a "Welfare State" ?
I've said my piece, (more than I meant to) we can debate further if you'd like, but maybe we should do it via PM. I'm sure Steve would prefer that too. :rolleyes:

Dick

PS It looks like once again, whoever is elected, they won't be the best man for the job....all those guys are too smart to want it. Lets ask Artie, I'll bet he agrees with what Fat's said re; politicians, "They're all thieves and hustlers" :eek:
 
Last edited:

Artie Bodendorfer

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Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
Dick Mc Morran said:
George,

You pulled a "movie star" move, (as they are prone to do when accepting an Oscar, see Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Di Caprio etc.) You have turned a pool forum into a platform to express YOUR political views.
As there is no NPR forum on 1P.org., I consider this a "low blow". So I will retaliate with MY views, I will only remind you, that you are responding to a person who is the epitome of all the things you seem to detest.
The liberally biased media, and all of Hollywood, cannot overcome the fact that this country is, what it is, by virtue of ALL the people who were smart enough to make money, and provide jobs. I'm talking Andrew Carnigie, J.P.Morgan, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates,
and thousands of others who saw through the liberal views that have created some of the WORST years this country has had to endure.
Yes, we are up against it again. I have never been a fan of Bush/Cheney, but I KNOW we'd be really screwed, if we had a Clinton or a Carter trying to deal with our current economic problems, AND the terrorist threat.
Let,s hope our next President can provide the leardership we need, now more than ever. I wish you luck with your Fall garden, but I think you need to let the "Big Boy's deal with our financial situation.
I've said my piece, (more than I meant to) we can debate further if you'd like, but maybe we should do it via PM. I'm sure Steve would prefer that too. :rolleyes:

Dick

PS It looks like once again, whoever is elected, they won't be the best man for the job....all those guys are too smart to take it. Lets ask Artie :eek:
You get what you vote for and then you might not get the person you vote for. But you are correct about one thing one of the will win even if its not your choice. And I hope it will change whats going on and make it ok again. But wright now were in a little bit of a slump.
 

gbru

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Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
383
one pocket forum

one pocket forum

:) Dear Dick and others who were offended by my short reply.

I apologize for touching a nerve. I shouldn't have done it. That's all I'll say.

I do agree fully with your PS Dick. And it is a shame that the best suited will never run for office.

From now on it's strictly one pocket talk for me.

Have another nice day tomorrow and forget what I said today! Okay?

george
 

hemicudas

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
702
Dick Mc Morran said:
George,

You pulled a "movie star" move, (as they are prone to do when accepting an Oscar, see Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Di Caprio etc.) You have turned a pool forum into a platform to express YOUR political views.
As there is no NPR forum on 1P.org., I consider this a "low blow". So I will respond with MY views. I will also remind you, that you are responding to a person (Artie) who is the epitome of all the things you seem to detest.
The liberally biased media, and all of Hollywood, cannot overcome the fact that this country is, what it is, by virtue of ALL the people who were SMART ENOUGH to make money, and provide jobs. I'm talking Andrew Carnigie, J.P.Morgan, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates,
and thousands of others who saw through the liberal views that have created some of the WORST years this country has had to endure.
Yes, we are up against it again. I have never been a fan of Bush/Cheney, but I KNOW we'd be really screwed if we had a Clinton or a Carter trying to deal with our current economic problems, AND the terrorist threat.
Let's hope our next President can provide the leardership we need now, more than ever. I wish you luck with your Fall garden, but I think you need to let the "Big Boy's" deal with our financial situation. Protecting our entitlements will not get it. Do you really want a "Welfare State" ?
I've said my piece, (more than I meant to) we can debate further if you'd like, but maybe we should do it via PM. I'm sure Steve would prefer that too. :rolleyes:

Dick

PS It looks like once again, whoever is elected, they won't be the best man for the job....all those guys are too smart to want it. Lets ask Artie, I'll bet he agrees with what Fat's said re; politicians, "They're all thieves and hustlers" :eek:
For sure, Dick. That shit belongs on AZ, NPR.........
 

SJDinPHX

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Messages
9,226
gbru said:
:) Dear Dick and others who were offended by my short reply.

I apologize for touching a nerve. I shouldn't have done it. That's all I'll say.

I do agree fully with your PS Dick. And it is a shame that the best suited will never run for office.

From now on it's strictly one pocket talk for me.

Have another nice day tomorrow and forget what I said today! Okay?

george
George,

I was not fishing for, nor do I deserve, an apology. You have shown me you are a true gentleman for offering one. Obviously politics and religion are best discussed over a beer or two. Hopefully we'll get to do that someday friend. :)

Dick
 

gbru

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Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
383
Artie Bodendorfer said:
You are correct and that goes for every sport the person or team that makes the most mistakes will lose. And when we talk about great players their is not to much difference in ability. Even in sports thats why on any given day the team with the worst record can beat the team with the best record. But if you would let me bet on the team or player with the least mistakes you will win the money. The only excepion would be if the player or team are 40 % better then the other player or team then they could over come the mistakes. But every situation is different. I would like to take one mistake and eliminate what hapenes off of that mistake and bet on the other person or team Just one mistake one. And Now I will point out why it will not show up because the person he is playing will make just as many or more mistakes then Efrin so if the player playing Efrin makes as many mistakes as efrin makes. THen Efrin will destoy him because he will get more out of the mistake then you will because of his ability and position and caroms. So you see the people playing him are not even out moving him and their mistakes WILL COST THEM MORE THEN WHEN EFRIN MAKES A MISTAKE. AND thats why I said you have to play the whole game mistake free. And Efrin can not spot any good player one mistake a game especialy a major mistake. But I am wrighting this to show people that what I wrote in the beginning is the truth not just a story or BS. And You can prove it to youreself. Just watch all the cds or DVD and take away the mistakes and the other person will win the game. You can see it in a lot of taps. And I am not saying that one mistake will cost you the game. But I am saying it could cost you the game. Especialy if its near the end of the game. But if two great players play I will bet on the player who makes the least amount of mistakes. So you see if Efrin playes he might be the player who makes the least amount of mistakes. And the mistake you make will be worse for you then when Efrin makes the same mistake because he can do more at the table running out. THat is why I keep saying if you play the game mistake free and Efrin makes two mistakes. I will lay 3 to 2 that Efrin will lose that game. And in Boxing it only takes one mistake to loose the fight. What I am telling you is correct and you can belive me or not. And if you are playing some one that playes your speed of one pocket keep playing him and dont make as many mistakes as he makes and you will beat him easy. You can prove it to yourself you dont have to take my word for it. And I am not benafitting anything by telling you. I am not selling a DVD or a Cd or a book I am telling you this to help you and make you aware of what you need to do to improve your game. And you will have the biggest high of your life once you get their and understand it. And as far as the election goes I am for neither party. I am nutral and for the people and the people should have the power not the GOVERMENT. And both candadats make all these promises and what the will do and the debate against each other the waste a Zillion dollares campaining and debating.. ANd as soon as the get into office its all over THE DO WHAT THE WANT. And forget all the promises and things the said the would do. Its like me HUstling a sucker and telling them what the want to her and ten I take his money. And I have seen all their promisess and lies with other presidents. And the Republicans would do and say whatever the can to get them in office and the Democrates would do the same. I am not telling you to vote or not vote what I am telling you is look what hapens to all the things the said in their campain when the get into office. And the will do what the want. And BUsch did what he wanted and nobody stoped him and all I herd was we need a new President. Will my good people of America you Voted Busch in and you got what you voted for and I can tell you this through experience people pick more loosers than winners. But Who ever wins I will live with it and I will see what happened to all the promisess the made to become president. And the will do what the want. NOt what the people want or what the promised. Its like backing a pool player he can do what he wants with the backers money. THink about it. But no matter what anyone tells you playing one pocket mistake free is the way to go. Because we dont all shoot and bank like Harold Worst And Efrin Or Bugs or EDdie taylor so we have to adjust to OUR ABILITY. THis is very important to ajust to youre ability. And not try to do what the best players try because you have to play and shoot shoots according to yopur ability tell you learn and improve your skills. I hope you understand what I am saying. And good luck with your game and keep thinking and learning and you need to learn to have strong concentration. Take the game serious not like a joke. And remember while you are playing count your mistakes and that you should be able to iomprove on even if you have reached your shooting potential. And if you are serious about becomeing a champion then learn the correct tools and put in more houers and take it more serious and practice what will improve your game and mind. And dont just get some balls and bang them around the table because you like their colores and the way the sound. THis is not a terapy session. Its up to you what you want to be. And I am talking through my experience and I am not selling you a story. But what you have to do to become a great player. If you want it bad enough then give it 100% and go for it. YOU CAN DO IT.

Nothing but one pocket.

I am starting to hear cleared and clearer what you are describing Artie. There is no doubt that you know what you are talking about. Just in the last couple of weeks I have progressed further along with my recognition of shot selection. When I make a mistake and let whitey get away I am reminded of what you keep saying. Shoot more conservative safe shots until you are more confident that your shooting ability can sustain a somewhat riskier shot selection. Every time I lose a game it is usually because I let whitey get away without fully weighing the penalty of how many balls it's is going to cost me if I miss. Especially if I'm playing someone who is a better shooter. Thanks for all of the advise. Believe me I will use it. And I'm through with the debate on best ever. I'm going to focus more energy and time on getting better myself.

I hope you, Dick, Freddy and others continue to share your knowledge and expetise as freely as you have been doing these last weeks.

Have a nice day

george
 

gbru

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Joined
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Messages
383
Dick Mc Morran said:
George,

I was not fishing for, nor do I deserve, an apology. You have shown me you are a true gentleman for offering one. Obviously politics and religion are best discussed over a beer or two. Hopefully we'll get to do that someday friend. :)

Dick

Thanks for the reply Dick. You are absolutely right. Not only would I have a beer with you but it would be an honor to treat someone of your caliber of one pocket player to a fine meal also. Hopefully I will have that oportunity some day.

In my opinion one pocket transcends politics and religion. Especially in a conversation. BTW, I'm not looking for an argument. I'm just frustrated like a lot of other people.

thanks again.........george
 
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