Best Alltime One Pocket Players

OldSchool

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
225
For a long time I've read the forum threads here and over at azbilliards and I've seen a lot of threads with opinions of who was really the best all time one pocket players. I know the game of one pocket as well as any living human, it's the best pool game in the world, so I'm going to give my opinion. Starting from the 60's I've seen them all play, I'm not including guys whose heyday was before that time because they weren't in their primes anymore when I saw them play. I'm not saying who was the one and only best player, but who was the best according to category.

For aggressive, offensive, runout one pocket, I believe the two all time best are Ronnie Allen and Efren Reyes. And speaking of Efren, the part of his game that everybody always talks and raves about is his creativity, well I disagree. Yes he has that, but I think the strongest part of his game that has most of all given him his success, is his unsurpassed cueball control and his ball running. Scott Frost and Chohan are the up and comer's in this category.

For careful, smart, defensive minded one pocket, Artie Bodendorfer was the best I've ever seen. For those of you on here who never saw him play and wonder if what you hear on here is B.S. or biased, as far as his playing, it's the truth, he did play that good. As far as some other things he's said, that might be a different story that I'll talk about another time. After Artie, next best at this style of one pocket were guys like Varner, Hopkins, and Fusco.

Last of all are the best all time one pocket players who played a 'centered' game, somewhere in the middle area between very offensive minded and very defensive minded. In this category I put Grady and Bugs as the best, closely followed by guys like Steve Cook, Cliff, and Cooney. Up and comer's in this category are young players like Gabe Owen, Ochoa, Nevel, etc.

OldSchool
 
Last edited:

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
8,593
OldSchool said:
For a long time I've read the forum threads here and over at azbilliards and I've seen a lot of threads with opinions of who was really the best all time one pocket players. I know the game of one pocket as well as any living human, it's the best pool game in the world, so I'm going to give my opinion. Starting from the 60's I've seen them all play, I'm not including guys whose heyday was before that time because they weren't in their primes anymore when I saw them play. I'm not saying who was the one and only best player, but who was the best according to category.

For aggressive, offensive, runout one pocket, I believe the two all time best are Ronnie Allen and Efren Reyes. And speaking of Efren, the part of his game that everybody always talks and raves about is his creativity, well I disagree. Yes he has that, but I think the strongest part of his game that has most of all given him his success, is his unsurpassed cueball control and his ball running. Scott Frost and Chohan are the up and comer's in this category.

For careful, smart, defensive minded one pocket, Artie Bodendorfer was the best I've ever seen. For those of you on here who never saw him play and wonder if what you hear on here is B.S. or biased, as far as his playing, it's the truth, he did play that good. As far as some other things he's said, that might be a different story that I'll talk about another time. After Artie, next best at this style of one pocket were guys like Varner, Hopkins, and Fusco.

Last of all are the best all time one pocket players who played a 'centered' game, somewhere in the middle area between very offensive minded and very defensive minded. In this category I put Grady and Bugs as the best, closely followed by guys like Steve Cook, Cliff, and Cooney. Up and comer's in this category are young players like Gabe Owen, Ochoa, Nevel, etc.

OldSchool
That's a pretty good run down. I wonder, did you ever see 'Clem' play? He is the other player (besides Artie) active during the time frame you are talking about, that always had a reputation on tightly controling the game...
 

OldSchool

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
225
NH Steve said:
That's a pretty good run down. I wonder, did you ever see 'Clem' play? He is the other player (besides Artie) active during the time frame you are talking about, that always had a reputation on tightly controling the game...

Steve, There's a few other players that could have, or should have been on my list, but I didn't see them play enough to be able to make an informed judgment of their game. Clem would be one of those. Ed Kelly would be another, because the times that I happened to see him play it was always 9ball rather than One Pocket.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
OldSchool said:
Steve, There's a few other players that could have, or should have been on my list, but I didn't see them play enough to be able to make an informed judgment of their game. Clem would be one of those. Ed Kelly would be another, because the times that I happened to see him play it was always 9ball rather than One Pocket.
Just got off the phone after a 2 hr. session with Kelly. We had not seen each other for thirty some years. His recall is much better than mine. ( but then he's just a kid of 70) He may be posting here soon, and like you (old school) he will prefer to remain anonymous. I hope he will bring some credibility to these discussions. (thats a joke guy's)
Not saying anybody is wrong, or fibbing, but I will respect most (sic) of his observations re; what happened, and when. As guy's in our age bracket are prone to do, we spent a lot of time discussing our various surgeries.

Dick

PS Billy, some of his recollections vary from yours, AND mine. And thats all good. The odds of ANY pool player recalling, with great accuracy what really went down, 40 yrs. ago are very slim. :rolleyes: Thanks for putting me in touch with him.

Titanic Dick (pat. pend.)
 
Last edited:

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Tommy the Greek

Tommy the Greek

Dick Mc Morran said:
Just got off the phone after a 2 hr. session with Kelly. We had not seen each other for thirty some years. His recall is much better than mine. He will be posting here shortly, and like you (old school) he will prefer to remain anonymous. I hope he will bring some credibility to these discussions.
Not saying anybody is wrong, or fibbing, but I will respect most (sic) of his observations re; what happened, and when.

Dick

PS Billy, some of his recollections vary from yours. And thats all good. The odds of ANY pool player recalling what really went down, are very slim. :rolleyes:

Titanic Dick (pat. pend.)

Dick, did you know Tommy the Greek. He was a legend around Chicago in the 20s and 30s. I ran into him in the late 60s at 4th and Main in LA. I heard he played Eddie Taylor to a draw for $100 a game in LA when he was 69yrs old.

the Beard
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
fred bentivegna said:
Dick, did you know Tommy the Greek. He was a legend around Chicago in the 20s and 30s. I ran into him in the late 60s at 4th and Main in LA. I heard he played Eddie Taylor to a draw for $100 a game in LA when he was 69yrs old.

the Beard
No Fred, don't recall that name. Wonder how old Eddie was when they played ?

Dick
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
Taylor was still playing good

Taylor was still playing good

Dick Mc Morran said:
No Fred, don't recall that name. Wonder how old Eddie was when they played ?

Dick
The year was either 69 or 70 at 4th and Main. I had just left there.
Ronnie knew him. He called Ronnie, Junior. Tommy said "Junior" probably was as good as anybody, ever.

the Beard
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
fred bentivegna said:
The year was either 69 or 70 at 4th and Main. I had just left there.
Ronnie knew him. He called Ronnie, Junior. Tommy said "Junior" probably was as good as anybody, ever.

the Beard
"Junior" was RA's nickname all throughout his early years in LA.
 
Last edited:

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
OldSchool said:
For a long time I've read the forum threads here and over at azbilliards and I've seen a lot of threads with opinions of who was really the best all time one pocket players. I know the game of one pocket as well as any living human, it's the best pool game in the world, so I'm going to give my opinion. Starting from the 60's I've seen them all play, I'm not including guys whose heyday was before that time because they weren't in their primes anymore when I saw them play. I'm not saying who was the one and only best player, but who was the best according to category.

For aggressive, offensive, runout one pocket, I believe the two all time best are Ronnie Allen and Efren Reyes. And speaking of Efren, the part of his game that everybody always talks and raves about is his creativity, well I disagree. Yes he has that, but I think the strongest part of his game that has most of all given him his success, is his unsurpassed cueball control and his ball running. Scott Frost and Chohan are the up and comer's in this category.

For careful, smart, defensive minded one pocket, Artie Bodendorfer was the best I've ever seen. For those of you on here who never saw him play and wonder if what you hear on here is B.S. or biased, as far as his playing, it's the truth, he did play that good. As far as some other things he's said, that might be a different story that I'll talk about another time. After Artie, next best at this style of one pocket were guys like Varner, Hopkins, and Fusco.

Last of all are the best all time one pocket players who played a 'centered' game, somewhere in the middle area between very offensive minded and very defensive minded. In this category I put Grady and Bugs as the best, closely followed by guys like Steve Cook, Cliff, and Cooney. Up and comer's in this category are young players like Gabe Owen, Ochoa, Nevel, etc.

OldSchool
Some very good observations Old School. I certainly concur with your take on Efren. What would your opinion be, on who would have had the best of it, among the guy's like RA, Efren,(and other smart but offensive minded player's)
versus full time squeezers like Artie, Fusco, etc. ? All during their respective prime's of course. You sure seem to favor Chicago style 1P.

Dick

PS Are you SURE you're not Artie with a hot new stenographer/ghost writer ?
 
Last edited:

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
All time opinion challenge

All time opinion challenge

Everybody has got their own opinion in this matter. But what I would like to know is if anybody has really played all these top guys more than me? Talking about, Ronnie, Efren, Grady, Artie, and Bugs. The least guy I played with was Ronnie, because we only played 5 times. Efren I played almost daily for a year. Grady and I played about 15 to 20 times all over the country. Artie and I hung out in the same poolroom and played regularly for 20 years. I played Bugs even more than Artie because I used to go to Bug's poolroom and play him on the South Side -- yeah, the place where no good player ever went to play him besides me and Mexican Johnny. Cardone and Grady would probably come next closest because they too played them all, but Grady only played Artie twice and Bugs 4 or 5 times. Ronnie and Artie never played, and Artie also never played Efren. I think Bugs only played Efren once.
That being said, and that drum now beat to death, I will choose to reserve my opinions because I would have to insert too many provisos. Plus, whatever I would say, my pal Cardone would choose to do battle with me over. I prefer to have my differences in opinion with Cardone occur when we are in the booth together doing an accu-stats taping. Pat Fleming has me under contract to argue with Cardone only when he has the camera on.

the Beard

PS my picks would be based on circumstances.
 

OldSchool

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
225
Dick Mc Morran said:
You sure seem to favor Chicago style 1P.

Dick

PS Are you SURE you're not Artie with a hot new stenographer/ghost writer ?

Dick, you're confused. I have no idea why you would say I favor Chicago style, I never said anything like that in any of my posts. I think the past champions were best served by playing the style that suited their own personal temperament and pool skills.

As for me being Artie, when you see the post that I'll be making soon, you'll sure as hell know that I'm not Artie.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
OldSchool said:
Dick, you're confused. I have no idea why you would say I favor Chicago style, I never said anything like that in any of my posts. I think the past champions were best served by playing the style that suited their own personal temperament and pool skills.

As for me being Artie, when you see the post that I'll be making soon, you'll sure as hell know that I'm not Artie.
Old School, You sound like a knowledgeable, guy, with a lot to contribute.
Why do you feel it is necessary to play the "cloak and dagger" game ? Do you owe an unpayable debt, or does someone has it in for you ? It's all fun here. Either 'fess up or stop teasing. What do you have to gain ? IMO :)
Dick
 
Last edited:

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
Dick Mc Morran said:
Old School, You sound like a knowledgeable, fun guy, with a lot to contribute.
Why do you feel it is necessary to play the "cloak and dagger" game ? Do you owe an unpayable debt, or does someone has it in for you ? It's all fun here. Either 'fess up or stop teasing. What do you have to gain ? IMO :)
Dick
One way thinking will never change and that is howe most people are programed and keep thinking. Change youre thinking. The greatest one pocket player. Everyone picks their favorite player and the player the like and have seen play and think the are the best.And the even pick the player with the most dominating personality and attitude. Some people pick Efren some people pick Ronnie and nobody picked Bugs because of the people who are talking and picking. And if we had as many black people answering on the sight as white people the would pick Bugs just like your picks. And the would even say Ronnie and Bugs played 3 times and Bugs one twice so does that make Bugs a better player then Ronnie. It all depends on the peoples favorites its all in the beholders eyes. And everyone would have a different favorite and different player. THe truth is it can not be proven. Its all information and hir say. And people will stay with their pick. Just like some fans the will only pick their team from their city no matter what the game or sport. People will pick their player from their state no matter what. Do you see the picture. And you will see what I am telling you when the same people will respond to what I wrote and the will stay loyale no matter what. And some people will pick people the never even seen play. The repeat what other people have said or herd. And these players would shoot at eveything. The wouldnt pass up a shot if the could lock up the game the would still shoot. The figure the will make the shot and run eight and out. And Bugs was as creative and aggressive on offense as any player in life. And back then you were not allowed to shoot jump shots and macey shoots. So again the rules changed the game and Bugs and Ronnie didnt shoot jump shoots like the players today. And if the would have been in their prime today. They would have jumped over a ball and banked the ball and ran 8 and out. TIME changes everything. And even the equipment thats why you cant compair players from 35 years ago to today. If you didnt see the 3 best players play how would you no who to pick. Or even compare the players to the other players if you never seen them play. Its all a guess and your pick. And people will go broke trying to pick winners. When Efren played the one pocket field was very slim and the great old time one pocket players were going down hill. And the field Efren had to play were Cliff Shannon Parica and a young Scott Frost and maybe a few more. But thats not much of a field. And even today their are only 5 or 10 great one pocket players. But 35 years ago the had a great and big one pocket field the greatest ever in the world. The had Edie Taylor Bugs Ronnie Allen Bosten Shorty Marvine Henderson Jersey Red Grady Mathues Cinn Clem Harold Worst Edie Kelly Nick Varner Jimmy Fousco Pittsburg Billy Steve Cook Corn Bread Red Cannon Ball Blackie Squarll Chriss Mageean Mike Carillo Richie Florence Mexican Johnny Det Whity Baby Face Eral Hisler Steve Mizrack Buddy Hall Mike Siegal And many more. THIS IS THE GREATEST FIELD OFF ONE POCKET PLAYERS IN LIFE. I guess some one out their will chalange this too. But its ok Because some people always want to take the other side no matter what thats what makes gambling. ThIS IS A MONSTER FIELD. Now we will brack it down. And her are some of the keys. 1 Are the gitting backed. Well thats a edge for the player gitting backed. Because the fear factor of loosing their own money will change their game and style. And the will be less aggressive with their own money.So betting their own money makes a difference wheather you belive it or not. THe difference is you can win but you can not lose any money. Its a free shoot and players shoot acordingly.Everyone is brave when the can only win and cant lose.And If the get backed the want to bet as high as the can 50 million would be ok. But if the had to bet 10 thousand of their own money playing another champion it would never happen. And if the had to bet their own money you would see very few of these players playing each other. And some would never play. Everything is a factor and comes into play. And see if these champions would give out spots of 9 to 8 or 9 to 7 with their own money. You would have to waite a life time. THe would rather run to the race track or to a Casino then to bet their money on themselves against each other. The Backers make these games possiable or the would never happen. And some great players wont bet their own money on a tough pool game no matter what. And all of this will lower a player credability when you compair all these great players. And if the make a big score their gone because the dont want to bet their winnings and their own money. And the will look for a new backer the next day. And give you a story what the did with the money. And remember gitting stacked and betting their own money makes a very big difference. And it will show the true caracter of the player and his heart. When you pick out the greatest player you have to weigh up eveything. And Boston Shorty won more one pocket tournaments in Johnson City. Then any player. And betting their own money will change their aggresive style and show their true game and speed the play. Not getting backed and shooting at the moon because their all geared up and cant lose a penny. And if the had to shoot a real tough shoot and if the miss the shoot and lose their own 5 thousand dollares the will not shoot at the shoot and play safe. And her is number 2 If the play 3 out of 5 any player can win that I mentioned. Any player but if the play 5 or 6 games ahead the best player will win and the player who desirves it. And the very agressive one pocket style will change and get weeker.And being all geared up will change and even their attitude playing 5 or 6 games ahead. And its not a indurance contest or a poke and hope contest either and if the players are 30 or 35 years old the will have no problem playing 10 or 15 houers. And the more consistant players will keep their foucus and concentration longer. And not just shoot at give up and qutie playing. We no who the aggresive shooters are and we no who the more conservative players are. And to find out who the best player is the would have to play 5 or 6 games ahead with each other a round robin and bet 5 thousand dollares of their own money. And then you would have a good Idea who the best player is. Not just a few people saying the same thing over and over and their is no autentesade and it is also incomplete. And some of these great players never even played each other so howe can you say who is the best. You can only give your byas opinion with no cedability. And playing each other in a tournament does not prove anything. You have to have some real seasons and not some sociable 20 dollares a game because you are friends And you win that doesnt prove anything. And next time you watch a great player watch what he shoots in a tournament and what he shoots when he bets 5 or 10 thousand dollares in a freeze out session and watch everything change including his temper ment. I have watched pitts burg Billy play in tournaments and he is one player that playes way better betting his own money then when he playes in a tournament. When he playes in a tournament his style is way different then when he gambles. Even his attitude and personality changes. Billy is a good money player but not a good tournament player. And some one will disagree with me on this. But its the truth and I dont think Billy will disagree with me and if he does. He has his pool rights and that is only my opinion not someone elses. And Billy is a great salesman to. I hope this isnt to long. Emagine if I was with Moses and the 10 commanments. But I wrote this so people can see a different way to look at who is the best player and not just pick their player because the no him and he is from their town. Or the love his Bs and stories but that does help and it will get you votes. By the time you read this sunday will be gone and you dont get to spend this day over again.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
Artie Bodendorfer said:
One way thinking will never change and that is howe most people are programed and keep thinking. Change youre thinking. The greatest one pocket player. Everyone picks their favorite player and the player the like and have seen play and think the are the best.And the even pick the player with the most dominating personality and attitude. Some people pick Efren some people pick Ronnie and nobody picked Bugs because of the people who are talking and picking. And if we had as many black people answering on the sight as white people the would pick Bugs just like your picks. And the would even say Ronnie and Bugs played 3 times and Bugs one twice so does that make Bugs a better player then Ronnie. It all depends on the peoples favorites its all in the beholders eyes. And everyone would have a different favorite and different player. THe truth is it can not be proven. Its all information and hir say. And people will stay with their pick. Just like some fans the will only pick their team from their city no matter what the game or sport. People will pick their player from their state no matter what. Do you see the picture. And you will see what I am telling you when the same people will respond to what I wrote and the will stay loyale no matter what. And some people will pick people the never even seen play. The repeat what other people have said or herd. And these players would shoot at eveything. The wouldnt pass up a shot if the could lock up the game the would still shoot. The figure the will make the shot and run eight and out. And Bugs was as creative and aggressive on offense as any player in life. And back then you were not allowed to shoot jump shots and macey shoots. So again the rules changed the game and Bugs and Ronnie didnt shoot jump shoots like the players today. And if the would have been in their prime today. They would have jumped over a ball and banked the ball and ran 8 and out. TIME changes everything. And even the equipment thats why you cant compair players from 35 years ago to today. If you didnt see the 3 best players play how would you no who to pick. Or even compare the players to the other players if you never seen them play. Its all a guess and your pick. And people will go broke trying to pick winners. When Efren played the one pocket field was very slim and the great old time one pocket players were going down hill. And the field Efren had to play were Cliff Shannon Parica and a young Scott Frost and maybe a few more. But thats not much of a field. And even today their are only 5 or 10 great one pocket players. But 35 years ago the had a great and big one pocket field the greatest ever in the world. The had Edie Taylor Bugs Ronnie Allen Bosten Shorty Marvine Henderson Jersey Red Grady Mathues Cinn Clem Harold Worst Edie Kelly Nick Varner Jimmy Fousco Pittsburg Billy Steve Cook Corn Bread Red Cannon Ball Blackie Squarll Chriss Mageean Mike Carillo Richie Florence Mexican Johnny Det Whity Baby Face Eral Hisler Steve Mizrack Buddy Hall Mike Siegal And many more. THIS IS THE GREATEST FIELD OFF ONE POCKET PLAYERS IN LIFE. I guess some one out their will chalange this too. But its ok Because some people always want to take the other side no matter what thats what makes gambling. ThIS IS A MONSTER FIELD. Now we will brack it down. And her are some of the keys. 1 Are the gitting backed. Well thats a edge for the player gitting backed. Because the fear factor of loosing their own money will change their game and style. And the will be less aggressive with their own money.So betting their own money makes a difference wheather you belive it or not. THe difference is you can win but you can not lose any money. Its a free shoot and players shoot acordingly.Everyone is brave when the can only win and cant lose.And If the get backed the want to bet as high as the can 50 million would be ok. But if the had to bet 10 thousand of their own money playing another champion it would never happen. And if the had to bet their own money you would see very few of these players playing each other. And some would never play. Everything is a factor and comes into play. And see if these champions would give out spots of 9 to 8 or 9 to 7 with their own money. You would have to waite a life time. THe would rather run to the race track or to a Casino then to bet their money on themselves against each other. The Backers make these games possiable or the would never happen. And some great players wont bet their own money on a tough pool game no matter what. And all of this will lower a player credability when you compair all these great players. And if the make a big score their gone because the dont want to bet their winnings and their own money. And the will look for a new backer the next day. And give you a story what the did with the money. And remember gitting stacked and betting their own money makes a very big difference. And it will show the true caracter of the player and his heart. When you pick out the greatest player you have to weigh up eveything. And Boston Shorty won more one pocket tournaments in Johnson City. Then any player. And betting their own money will change their aggresive style and show their true game and speed the play. Not getting backed and shooting at the moon because their all geared up and cant lose a penny. And if the had to shoot a real tough shoot and if the miss the shoot and lose their own 5 thousand dollares the will not shoot at the shoot and play safe. And her is number 2 If the play 3 out of 5 any player can win that I mentioned. Any player but if the play 5 or 6 games ahead the best player will win and the player who desirves it. And the very agressive one pocket style will change and get weeker.And being all geared up will change and even their attitude playing 5 or 6 games ahead. And its not a indurance contest or a poke and hope contest either and if the players are 30 or 35 years old the will have no problem playing 10 or 15 houers. And the more consistant players will keep their foucus and concentration longer. And not just shoot at give up and qutie playing. We no who the aggresive shooters are and we no who the more conservative players are. And to find out who the best player is the would have to play 5 or 6 games ahead with each other a round robin and bet 5 thousand dollares of their own money. And then you would have a good Idea who the best player is. Not just a few people saying the same thing over and over and their is no autentesade and it is also incomplete. And some of these great players never even played each other so howe can you say who is the best. You can only give your byas opinion with no cedability. And playing each other in a tournament does not prove anything. You have to have some real seasons and not some sociable 20 dollares a game because you are friends And you win that doesnt prove anything. And next time you watch a great player watch what he shoots in a tournament and what he shoots when he bets 5 or 10 thousand dollares in a freeze out session and watch everything change including his temper ment. I have watched pitts burg Billy play in tournaments and he is one player that playes way better betting his own money then when he playes in a tournament. When he playes in a tournament his style is way different then when he gambles. Even his attitude and personality changes. Billy is a good money player but not a good tournament player. And some one will disagree with me on this. But its the truth and I dont think Billy will disagree with me and if he does. He has his pool rights and that is only my opinion not someone elses. And Billy is a great salesman to. I hope this isnt to long. Emagine if I was with Moses and the 10 commanments. But I wrote this so people can see a different way to look at who is the best player and not just pick their player because the no him and he is from their town. Or the love his Bs and stories but that does help and it will get you votes. By the time you read this sunday will be gone and you dont get to spend this day over again.
Now you're really pissing me off Artie. I did not find ONE THING in your post that I didn't agree with. How are we going to have arguments if you are going to start making sensible post's ? You sure have learned a lot in the short time you've been contributing here. (that's a joke Booth)
I have even learned to read your posts without getting a headache. So does that mean I'm losing my f###ing mind.(another joke)
Seriously, I enjoyed Steve's interview with you, and now feel different about you than I used to. If I was born in the middle of WWII, and had to grow up in downtown Chicago (which was another war zone, in those days) I may not have made it to my present station in life. (which is OK, but poor) I bet my own cash, against all the good player's.... way too many times :eek:

Titanic Dick (patent pending)

PS Hope Artie takes this post in the spirit it was intended, if not WTF do I care. :)
 
Last edited:

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
Dick Mc Morran said:
Now you're really pissing me off Artie. I did not find ONE THING in your post that I didn't agree with. How are we going to have arguments if you are going to start making sensible post's ? You sure have learned a lot in the short time you've been contributing here. (that's a joke Booth)
I have even learned to read your posts without getting a headache. So does that mean I'm losing my f###ing mind.(another joke)
Seriously, I enjoyed Steve's interview with you, and now feel different about you than I used to. If I was born in the middle of WWII, and had to grow up in downtown Chicago (which was another war zone, in those days) I may not have made it to my present station in life. (which is OK, but poor) I bet my own cash, against all the good player's.... way too many times :eek:

Titanic Dick (patent pending)

PS Hope Artie takes this post in the spirit it was intended, if not WTF do I care. :)
My kids use to say the same thing when the were 15 years old now the are older and the tell me gee dad its amazing how much you learned. If you grew up in world war 2 we would have been on opposite sides. Thank God hitler didnt win or the whole world would have lost. And I would have never played pool or been in Las Vegas. Ans the world wouldnt have to worry about terrorists because the real terrorists would have controled the world. So you see it does matter who wins. It changes the whole world. Put people dont realy think about what the world would have been if he realy won. Maybe the world wouldnt have even been her any more.
 

gbru

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
375
tight pockects debate and best ever!

tight pockects debate and best ever!

I've been reading with interest all of the debate on tight pockets and best ever players.

First off, in my opinion I think one pocket is the grandest game ever conceived. Not only compared to pool but all other sports included. It's as if there is no end to the strategy and skill one can acquire. Recently I bought a 9' Diamond that sits in the key room of my house. The pockets are about 4 5/8". However, they seem to narrow quicker than others at the back of the pocket. And, they will spit a ball out if not hit pure. I can't imagine playing on 4 or 41/4" pockets. I understand it is easier to dig balls from the pockets the tighter they are but, it also makes running 8 and out much more difficult.
I pretty much agree with Doc on his opinion of pocket size. However, that brings me to the second point: Who is the best player ever?

I wasn't playing or watching much pool when RA, Bugs, Eddie Taylor and the other old timers were in their prime. So, Like Artie says it's hard to say who is the best.

My friend Joe Nelson who lives in Mobile where I reside seems to be as knowledgeable as anyone on the game and how it should be played. At 60 he still moves great and shoots a mean game himself. He's always telling me stories about the old timers that he saw play. He played often with Earl Heisler in new Orleans who he cites as a favorite for his moving abilities. And of course Artie was his favorite all time mover. Like my friend Doc his overall choice for best player is RA. However, he does admit he's never seen Efren play that much.

We all have our preferences and we have that right. All I can do is listen to the debate and try and form my own opinion, which certainly won't affect the opinion of anyone else because very few of you know me anyway. However, I do sense an air of favoritism in some of the allegiance given to some players. Just like Artie stated in one of his posts: Oftentime we base our opinions on things like race, creed, patriotism etc.

That being said I would refer to Billy Incordona's opinion. He's been around the game for a long time and opines that Efren is by far the best. I'm sure many of you remember what Billy said to Danny Dileberto during a match they were announcing. "Wait a minute Danny. He will always be my favorite player because he's the best player to ever play this game." That coming from Billy is pretty strong. There wasn't any pretending or anything to gain. It was just a matter of fact. And, like Efren says: "And maybe i get lucky".

At 65 yrs Billy hits balls crisp and clean on "tight pockets"as good as any person his age and many guys much younger. And. if I'm not mistaken he often bets his own money when he gambles high. And, he seems to know the game pretty darn well.

From what I've read and heard when RA and the old timers were running 8 and outs they were playing on tables with big pockets. Granted the cloth wasn't as good and other factors may have contributed but the fact is when Efren was running 8 and outs it was usually on tight pockets. That's a big, big difference. And, there's not too many times you can dig a ball from Efren's pocket because it's often too deep. Not in the jaws but in the bottom.

And as far as Efren not having any competition I don't agree. Especially some of these young players. They shoot lights out. Efren's played Buddy, Cliff, Varner, Daulton, Parica,Grady, Cook, Billy, Jeremy Jones, Richie Richerson,Duel, Frost, Chohan, Pagulayan, Nevel, Owens,Wade Crane, Dileberto, and many others. And, if I'm not mistaken up to the last year or two he could have given any of them at least 2 balls.


Like I said I'm far from an expert but I know what I've been seeing for the past years at Derby City and on the accu stats tapes. Efren is a master of finesse and has unbridled skill that will go down in history and last for many, many years to come.

Not taking anything away from Ronnie, who was a great, great player, but I think a lot of you guys are voting for Ronnie for his flamboyant style and showmanship along with the fact that you want an American at the top. And there is nothing wrong with that. Except I disagree. But I guess we will never know for sure.

Thanks for promoting and keeping the game alive and growing.

george
 

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
gbru said:
I've been reading with interest all of the debate on tight pockets and best ever players.

First off, in my opinion I think one pocket is the grandest game ever conceived. Not only compared to pool but all other sports included. It's as if there is no end to the strategy and skill one can acquire. Recently I bought a 9' Diamond that sits in the key room of my house. The pockets are about 4 5/8". However, they seem to narrow quicker than others at the back of the pocket. And, they will spit a ball out if not hit pure. I can't imagine playing on 4 or 41/4" pockets. I understand it is easier to dig balls from the pockets the tighter they are but, it also makes running 8 and out much more difficult.
I pretty much agree with Doc on his opinion of pocket size. However, that brings me to the second point: Who is the best player ever?

I wasn't playing or watching much pool when RA, Bugs, Eddie Taylor and the other old timers were in their prime. So, Like Artie says it's hard to say who is the best.

My friend Joe Nelson who lives in Mobile where I reside seems to be as knowledgeable as anyone on the game and how it should be played. At 60 he still moves great and shoots a mean game himself. He's always telling me stories about the old timers that he saw play. He played often with Earl Heisler in new Orleans who he cites as a favorite for his moving abilities. And of course Artie was his favorite all time mover. Like my friend Doc his overall choice for best player is RA. However, he does admit he's never seen Efren play that much.

We all have our preferences and we have that right. All I can do is listen to the debate and try and form my own opinion, which certainly won't affect the opinion of anyone else because very few of you know me anyway. However, I do sense an air of favoritism in some of the allegiance given to some players. Just like Artie stated in one of his posts: Oftentime we base our opinions on things like race, creed, patriotism etc.

That being said I would refer to Billy Incordona's opinion. He's been around the game for a long time and opines that Efren is by far the best. I'm sure many of you remember what Billy said to Danny Dileberto during a match they were announcing. "Wait a minute Danny. He will always be my favorite player because he's the best player to ever play this game." That coming from Billy is pretty strong. There wasn't any pretending or anything to gain. It was just a matter of fact. And, like Efren says: "And maybe i get lucky".

At 65 yrs Billy hits balls crisp and clean on "tight pockets"as good as any person his age and many guys much younger. And. if I'm not mistaken he often bets his own money when he gambles high. And, he seems to know the game pretty darn well.

From what I've read and heard when RA and the old timers were running 8 and outs they were playing on tables with big pockets. Granted the cloth wasn't as good and other factors may have contributed but the fact is when Efren was running 8 and outs it was usually on tight pockets. That's a big, big difference. And, there's not too many times you can dig a ball from Efren's pocket because it's often too deep. Not in the jaws but in the bottom.

And as far as Efren not having any competition I don't agree. Especially some of these young players. They shoot lights out. Efren's played Buddy, Cliff, Varner, Daulton, Parica,Grady, Cook, Billy, Jeremy Jones, Richie Richerson,Duel, Frost, Chohan, Pagulayan, Nevel, Owens,Wade Crane, Dileberto, and many others. And, if I'm not mistaken up to the last year or two he could have given any of them at least 2 balls.


Like I said I'm far from an expert but I know what I've been seeing for the past years at Derby City and on the accu stats tapes. Efren is a master of finesse and has unbridled skill that will go down in history and last for many, many years to come.

Not taking anything away from Ronnie, who was a great, great player, but I think a lot of you guys are voting for Ronnie for his flamboyant style and showmanship along with the fact that you want an American at the top. And there is nothing wrong with that. Except I disagree. But I guess we will never know for sure.

Thanks for promoting and keeping the game alive and growing.

george
I said earlier that Billy woud take Efrin And Ronnie. But The players you mentioned were not as good as the ones in the older erier. And Grady was out of his prime when Efrin played him. And Grady would have give Efren a very hard time in his prime. And players like Ronnie Bugs Taylor Kelly Jersy red Marvin Henderson the all could have one 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 and If Efrin would have played Kelly 6 games ahead in his prime I would have bet on Kelly. Because Kelly played his heart out and he was a smarter player then Efrin and a better indurance player. And I would have played Efrin 6 games ahead for 10 or 20 thousand dollares especialy if he bet his own money. Because he is the best shooter and maybe the best position player. But I seen his games on Cds and he made too many mistakes to win. You can belive that or not. But look at the tapes and you will see all the bad mistakes and wrong shoots he played. And he made some of the greatest shoots in life and played some of the greatest position in life. But thats why I would love to have played Efrin because of all his mistakes and I love it when Champions shoot at all those 3 to 1 shoots and make them. Because playing 6 games ahead that will all change. And Billy had to much respect for Efrin. And he didnt play his game when he played Efrin. And Billy knowes it better then me. And If we had a partner game I would have taken Kelly and played against Ronnie and Efrin. And I even would have bet on Harold Worst and Kelly against Ronnie and Efrin And 95% of the people would have bet on Efrin and Ronnie. And I would have bet on Kelly and Worst against Efrin and Ronnie in playing partners in Eight Ball Nine Ball Straight pool One pocket and 3 cushion billiards. And Kelly and Worst would have been the favorite.But not in the publics eyes. And their would have been some other tough combinations. Like Whimpie and Taylor Bugs Marvine. Varner and Steve cook Mizrak and Sigale.Pitts Billy Jimmy Fosco Jersy red and Boston Shorty Corn bread and Cannon Ball Nick Varner and Mike Carillo Squrall Chriss Megeean And all these partners could have one thats how tough the field was. And what people dont understand you can change a aggresive shooters syle and their whole game will change. And I would like to her todays list of great one pocket players . That are playing top speed compared to the players I mentioned. THe one pocket field was tougher 35 yeares ago then today. And I dont even think the have any fanes players today. Its all a shoot out. And thats what the all do because nobody knowes any other way to play. Phil said it correct. I was dull and boring to watch. But thats what the game is when you play it correctly. And dont just shoot in the air. If I spent 6 monthes with Johnny Archer or Cory Duel the would be in the top 3 best one pocket players in the world if not the best. Because the have the tools and mind that the would learn it and understand it. But I belive todays one pocket players has gone way down in the field of 35 years ago. And The sure arnt as agressive or as smart. And it is silly to say that Efrin could have spoted guys like Kelly Worst Ronnie Bugs Taylor when he mite not have one even. I could say all these players could have spoted Efrin 10 to 8 in their prime. But it would only be talk. And I wish I could have played Efrin 6 games ahead for 10 or 20 thousand dollares and I belive he would have broken down. Not because how long it would take. But because of all mis mistakes. Witch people dont realize how important mistakes are. Its the difference between winning and losing. And Believe me you cannot spot a good player 2 mistakes a game and win. Even if you run 8 and out a third of the games. Mistakes is the name of any game or sport.And its great that some one can perform magic I would rather play them then a player who doesnt make any mistakes. Those are the hardest players to beat.And that is why I beat a lot of great players because the made to many mistakes. I didnt out shoot them and I didnt out bank them so I must have done something to beat them.I hope my wrighting doesnt disgurage you but incourage you.
 

Skin

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
2,150
It's impossible to know who the "best" 1p player was. It's not like determining who was the heaviest or the tallest. You can do an objective measurement for those and come up with a number nobody can argue with. Not so with "best".

Even in chess, where detailed records of all the moves and games by the champions are available, people can not agree on how to use that information to determine who was the best. That's because different people have different formulas for grading. As soon as one guy says offense is more important and another guy says defense is more important, you're right back to opinion instead of objective fact. Even if you got the 1p players all in a round robin playing with their own money for 5-6 ahead, the order in which they played each other probably would affect the outcome.

Of course the good news on this sort of thing is that while you cannot prove to know who was the best 1p player, you can still claim to be married to the best gal in the world and nobody can throw a number at you to disprove it. That makes for great domestic tranquility as long as your wife has no opinion about 1p players. :)

Skin
 
Last edited:

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
Skin said:
It's impossible to know who the "best" 1p player was. It's not like determining who was the heaviest or the tallest. You can do an objective measurement for those and come up with a number nobody can argue with. Not so with "best".

Even in chess, where detailed records of all the moves and games by the champions are available, people can not agree on how to use that information to determine who was the best. That's because different people have different formulas for grading. As soon as one guy says offense is more important and another guy says defense is more important, you're right back to opinion instead of objective fact. Even if you got the 1p players all in a round robin playing with their own money for 5-6 ahead, the order in which they played each other probably would affect the outcome.

Of course the good news on this sort of thing is that while you cannot prove to know who was the best 1p player, you can still claim to be married to the best gal in the world and nobody can throw a number at you to disprove it. That makes for great domestic tranquility as long as your wife has no opinion about 1p players. :)

Skin
Point well taken there, Skin man. My third wife (of 34 yrs.) thinks I am the best. (The first two didn't think so.) :rolleyes:

Ti Di
 

Skin

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
2,150
Dick Mc Morran said:
Point well taken there, Skin man. My third wife (of 34 yrs.) thinks I am the best. (The first two didn't think so.) :rolleyes:

Ti Di
Well, you probably didn't show the first two your full speed, Dick. :D

Skin
 
Top