Being Left On End-Rail

Billy Jackets

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Billy J.,

What if you left me the shot and I did this? Is this so wrong?

[CUETABLE]http://pool.bz/P/?@3AawG4BFqg3CCov4DDGj4EPhU3FLAU4GCQP4HAMA3IChp3JTux4KFrH3LBjS3MGxF4NBRe3ODeW2PQWc3QcYs4VFqg4VEDw4VCww4fFrH4fIVT2kQWc4kGwP4kbaS4kUOh4kTQb@[/CUETABLE]

I said I wouldn't leave this shot to a blind man?
I don't think I can say anything that explains how I feel about the shot any better?
I'm sorry if I confused you.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Billy Jackets said:
I said I wouldn't leave this shot to a blind man?
I don't think I can say anything that explains how I feel about the shot any better?
I'm sorry if I confused you.
My mistake BJ, one too many Miller Lites:D . I re-read your post, I am not now nor have I ever been a "lamb killer".

Dennis
 

lll

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Larry,

It's not really a matter of "losing games by passing up the shot" or "winning the games by shooting the shot". Just because I pass up a tough, long distance shot doesn't mean I lost the game just as if I shoot it and make it doesn't mean I won the game.

It's more a matter of being unpredictable. Anytime that you can leave your opponent someplace on the table and know for a fact that he won't shoot from there it's to your advantage. I let him think that for awhile and then remove his comfort zone when the time is right. How would you like it if you left me a long, tough shot for several games and I passed it up each time and then, in a tough spot, you leave it again feeling confident that I won't shoot at my pocket and I do? It's not really a "stall" tactic as I am passing up a good shot at my pocket (for quite awhile) but it is to my advantage in some situations. You have to weigh the opponent, the bet, the situation, and other intangibles to make your decisions. It's not always the "right" thing to do but it's worth a look.

It does take tremendous confidence in your own game & abilities to let the opponent have a "move" up on you only to turn the tables on him later when the time is right.

Dennis
if you were playing cornbread( with whatever spot you played ) would you use this strategy???
just askin??
 

Billy Jackets

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Cowboy Dennis said:
My mistake BJ, one too many Miller Lites:D . I re-read your post, I am not now nor have I ever been a "lamb killer".

Dennis
No problem sir. The lamb killer statement was part of the last part of my post talking about leaving them the ball if all they could get was one and sell out if they missed.
I played a lot of guys who could make that shot all day long if there was no penalty, lots of them missed when there was.
 

lll

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Of course I would and did. Who do you think I learned things like this from?:)

Dennis
you know dennis the more i learn about you the more i realize i should pay attention:)
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Billy Jackets said:
This doesnt seem like a good move even against a weak shooter like me. What is it that doesn't seem like a good move?
You might get several balls and if you miss it you might roll up and not even leave a shot. I wouldn't give a blind guy this shot , but if the one was all he could get and I had a ball or 2 in front of my hole and a possible break out. I'm giving you this till you prove you never miss.
This isn't for world class shooters but for regular guys that miss once in a while, especially when it's not "free".
I don't know what you do against a champion, I'm not that level, but against most people if they shoot to get one and give up a bunch of balls or the game because of it, they have to have some stones to overcome it.
All those "lamb killers " will fade after they miss the shot a time or two and you punish them.
BJ,

Today I am still trying to understand what you wrote. What move are you talking about. My original post simply stated that on many occasions I would pass up the shot at the 1 ball, that's all, no move was mentioned.

The rest of your post is non-responsive to my first post and that, along with the Miller Lite last night confused me:p .

I guess if there was a question to be asked it would be "Have you ever done this (pass up the 1 ball) to let your opponent think you won't shoot from there?".

[CUETABLE]http://pool.bz/P/?@3AawG4BFqg3CCov4DDGj4EPhU3FLAU4GCQP4HAMA3IChp3JTux4KFrH3LBjS3MGxF4NBRe3ODeW2PQWc3QcYs@[/CUETABLE]
 

Billy Jackets

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If I was playing someone weaker and gambling, I might pass it up to make them think something.
If I had to play hard I would shoot it every time in this situation. i'm not trying to be confusing, I'm from Ohio.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
Playing to the end rail offers a haven even against the best players, so I guess I would agree with Stroud, if it's right to shoot then go for it. To me that unwritten rule should apply, unless you have time to do what ever you want to do. Now if you were to ask Cooney about your strategy i'm sure he would agree.

Billy I.
Bill,

I truly enjoy the way you usually cover yourself by agreeing to both or all sides of a question without appearing to have done so:). Your above quote is a beautiful example of that. First, you make a true statement and then you agree with Bill Stroud, then you proceed to mitigate that agreement by throwing in "I guess", "if", "should" and "unless". No insult intended here either, I appreciate your constant dissembling, mis-directions, and world-class diplomatic responses and always being on the hustle. The above quote by you could be taken, and is by me, to mean absolutely nothing.

Let me help clarify if you would. Here's a purported quote by you ( I say purported because it's a quote from Freddy regarding a quote by you, not to doubt it's authenticity or veracity) on page 82 of "The GosPool of Bank Pool" and it was also posted by Freddy on 9-28-2005 on this site (before the book came out).

fred bentivegna said:
The most telling description regarding Ronnie Allen's One Pocket game came from top player, Bill Incardona, the voice of the Accu-Stat Pool Videos. When Bill was asked to rate Ronnie's game against Allen Hopkins of NJ, Billy gave this account:

"I played Hopkins for $1000 a game in his basement in Jersey. He spotted me 10 to 8. Even though we were in his house, and he is a great player, his game is very conservative and predictable. I was totally comfortable and relaxed, and able to play my game, which allowed me to beat him.

I later played Ronnie in Las Vegas, in my pool room, on my tables, for the same bet, and with the same spot, 10 to 8.

The difference was when I played Ronnie, the whole time I felt like I was in a very hot oven. I never had a clue as to what Ronnie was going to do next. He was crashing balls and running out, and the cue ball was constantly flying around all over the table. I got to thinking the only safe place to leave the cue ball was in a bank vault."

Clearly you place a great value on the benefits of being unpredictable when playing one-pocket, it would be nice but not necessary if you just came out and said that, but I do love and respect your inability to come off the con, even if just temporarily.

Dennis
 

lll

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The difference was when I played Ronnie, the whole time I felt like I was in a very hot oven. I never had a clue as to what Ronnie was going to do next. He was crashing balls and running out, and the cue ball was constantly flying around all over the table. I got to thinking the only safe place to leave the cue ball was in a bank vault."



im not sure the above comment and your strategy of shooting off the end rail are exactly the same
im making assumptions(which is not always good)
but ronnie was known for playing a style not played by the majority at that time


"crashing balls and running out....cue ball flying....."
the original power one pocket.
the aggressiveness of his shot selections and him executing the game plan(running alot of balls)
had to be responsible for the "feeling like being in a hot oven"

i think that kind of pressure is different than ducking sometimes and sometimes not from the end rail

im not saying your strategy wont help you when you shoot and make it when your opponent doesnt expect you to shoot
that type of "unpredictable"
is different from not knowing anywhere but in a bank vault is the cueball safe
since ronnie would "manufacture outs from improbable positions"
and not knowing what he would do from ANY position
jmho
icbw
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Bill,

I truly enjoy the way you usually cover yourself by agreeing to both or all sides of a question without appearing to have done so:). Your above quote is a beautiful example of that. First, you make a true statement and then you agree with Bill Stroud, then you proceed to mitigate that agreement by throwing in "I guess", "if", "should" and "unless". No insult intended here either, I appreciate your constant dissembling, mis-directions, and world-class diplomatic responses and always being on the hustle. The above quote by you could be taken, and is by me, to mean absolutely nothing.

Let me help clarify if you would. Here's a purported quote by you ( I say purported because it's a quote from Freddy regarding a quote by you, not to doubt it's authenticity or veracity) on page 82 of "The GosPool of Bank Pool" and it was also posted by Freddy on 9-28-2005 on this site (before the book came out).



Clearly you place a great value on the benefits of being unpredictable when playing one-pocket, it would be nice but not necessary if you just came out and said that, but I do love and respect your inability to come off the con, even if just temporarily.

Dennis
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
The most telling description regarding Ronnie Allen's One Pocket game came from top player, Bill Incardona, the voice of the Accu-Stat Pool Videos. When Bill was asked to rate Ronnie's game against Allen Hopkins of NJ, Billy gave this account:

"I played Hopkins for $1000 a game in his basement in Jersey. He spotted me 10 to 8. Even though we were in his house, and he is a great player, his game is very conservative and predictable. I was totally comfortable and relaxed, and able to play my game, which allowed me to beat him.

I later played Ronnie in Las Vegas, in my pool room, on my tables, for the same bet, and with the same spot, 10 to 8.

The difference was when I played Ronnie, the whole time I felt like I was in a very hot oven. I never had a clue as to what Ronnie was going to do next. He was crashing balls and running out, and the cue ball was constantly flying around all over the table. I got to thinking the only safe place to leave the cue ball was in a bank vault."




Dennis, allow me to start by clarifying that the above post you are referring to was posted by Freddy Bentivegna not Wincardona. I played Hopkins in his pool room not in his basement, and when I played Hopkins I was comfortable because I was playing about a ball better at that time than I was when I played R.A. when him and I played.

The description that Freddie was quoted as saying is not accurate, to say the least.

The reason I was confused when I played Ronnie was because I was young and new to the game of one pocket.

Finally let me get to the point of this post, when ever imo you're in a tough game you should never not shoot a shot that will aid you in winning the game just to establish unpredictability in your game. Oops, unless you have the time to do that, and yes that's considered stalling.

By the way if you read my post #16 all my "I guess" "if" "should" and "unless" reasons were spot on with the exception of when I said that I guess I would agree with Stroud. Let me rephrase that one. I do agree with Stroud. :p

Billy I.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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lll said:
The difference was when I played Ronnie, the whole time I felt like I was in a very hot oven. I never had a clue as to what Ronnie was going to do next. He was crashing balls and running out, and the cue ball was constantly flying around all over the table. I got to thinking the only safe place to leave the cue ball was in a bank vault."



im not sure the above comment and your strategy of shooting off the end rail are exactly the same
im making assumptions(which is not always good)
but ronnie was known for playing a style not played by the majority at that time


"crashing balls and running out....cue ball flying....."
the original power one pocket.
the aggressiveness of his shot selections and him executing the game plan(running alot of balls)
had to be responsible for the "feeling like being in a hot oven"

i think that kind of pressure is different than ducking sometimes and sometimes not from the end rail

im not saying your strategy wont help you when you shoot and make it when your opponent doesnt expect you to shoot
that type of "unpredictable"
is different from not knowing anywhere but in a bank vault is the cueball safe
since ronnie would "manufacture outs from improbable positions"
and not knowing what he would do from ANY position
jmho
icbw
Larry,

Your not necessarily wrong with what you wrote, as far as it goes, but I believe the key words are how "comfortable & relaxed" Bill was playing a "predictable" game against Hopkins. Ronnie kept him on edge in part because of his talent but also because of his "unpredictability". Of course, part of Ronnies "unpredictability" came from his unique approach to the game & his talent for it.

All in all it's better not to be predictable. The more places on the table that an opponent can leave you and know for a fact what you'll do or not do, gives him an edge up on you.

P.S. My WEI table layout is only a very general example used to basically illustrate the point I was making. There are hundreds of other positions and layouts that it also applies to.

Dennis
 

fred bentivegna

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Put it all thru a word detector...

Put it all thru a word detector...

wincardona said:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
The most telling description regarding Ronnie Allen's One Pocket game came from top player, Bill Incardona, the voice of the Accu-Stat Pool Videos. When Bill was asked to rate Ronnie's game against Allen Hopkins of NJ, Billy gave this account:

"I played Hopkins for $1000 a game in his basement in Jersey. He spotted me 10 to 8. Even though we were in his house, and he is a great player, his game is very conservative and predictable. I was totally comfortable and relaxed, and able to play my game, which allowed me to beat him.

I later played Ronnie in Las Vegas, in my pool room, on my tables, for the same bet, and with the same spot, 10 to 8.

The difference was when I played Ronnie, the whole time I felt like I was in a very hot oven. I never had a clue as to what Ronnie was going to do next. He was crashing balls and running out, and the cue ball was constantly flying around all over the table. I got to thinking the only safe place to leave the cue ball was in a bank vault."




Dennis, allow me to start by clarifying that the above post you are referring to was posted by Freddy Bentivegna not Wincardona. I played Hopkins in his pool room not in his basement, and when I played Hopkins I was comfortable because I was playing about a ball better at that time than I was when I played R.A. when him and I played.

The description that Freddie was quoted as saying is not accurate, to say the least.

The reason I was confused when I played Ronnie was because I was young and new to the game of one pocket.

Finally let me get to the point of this post, when ever imo you're in a tough game you should never not shoot a shot that will aid you in winning the game just to establish unpredictability in your game. Oops, unless you have the time to do that, and yes that's considered stalling.

By the way if you read my post #16 all my "I guess" "if" "should" and "unless" reasons were spot on with the exception of when I said that I guess I would agree with Stroud. Let me rephrase that one. I do agree with Stroud. :p

Billy I.

Willy, just what exactly, other than Hopkins poolroom rather than his basement, was inaccurate with my portrayal? Dat's da story you related to me (and other interested sweators). I will go to my grave remembering the "very hot oven" quote. That was the best part of the whole story. You certainly dont think I'm creative enough to make that line up do you? You dont want the credit for that terrific line?

Plus, anybody that knows you at all, knows that that is certainly you speaking those lines. That is the way you talk and phrase things. A "word detector" would testify that those words didnt come from me.

Beard
 

Cowboy Dennis

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wincardona said:
Dennis, allow me to start by clarifying that the above post you are referring to was posted by Freddy Bentivegna not Wincardona. I played Hopkins in his pool room not in his basement, and when I played Hopkins I was comfortable because I was playing about a ball better at that time than I was when I played R.A. when him and I played.

The description that Freddie was quoted as saying is not accurate, to say the least.

The reason I was confused when I played Ronnie was because I was young and new to the game of one pocket.

Finally let me get to the point of this post, when ever imo you're in a tough game you should never not shoot a shot that will aid you in winning the game just to establish unpredictability in your game. Oops, unless you have the time to do that, and yes that's considered stalling.

By the way if you read my post #16 all my "I guess" "if" "should" and "unless" reasons were spot on with the exception of when I said that I guess I would agree with Stroud. Let me rephrase that one. I do agree with Stroud. :p

Billy I.
Bill,

I stated and put in "quote" boxes to make clear that this was Freddy's quote as to what you said. I made that very clear. If his quote of you is wrong then I can't do anything about that. It's posted on this site as long ago as Sept. 2005 and it's in his book. If you now have a problem with me using it, as to it's accuracy, then I won't use it anymore but I must say that it's taken you a long time to point out that it's incorrect.

Is the part also incorrect when it says you played Ronnie later, after playing Hopkins?. Obviously if you were already a one-pocket player with enough knowledge to play Hopkins then you knew how to play the game already when you played Ronnie:confused: . I guess the entire quote is wrong, correct?

Mea Culpa

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Bill,

This thought has never occurred to you? It never in life occurred to you that it may be better to pass off on this shot for $25 a game and save it for $200 per game?

Dennis

Not relevant.:)
 

wincardona

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Bill,

I stated and put in "quote" boxes to make clear that this was Freddy's quote as to what you said. I made that very clear. If his quote of you is wrong then I can't do anything about that. It's posted on this site as long ago as Sept. 2005 and it's in his book. If you now have a problem with me using it, as to it's accuracy, then I won't use it anymore but I must say that it's taken you a long time to point out that it's incorrect.

Is the part also incorrect when it says you played Ronnie later, after playing Hopkins?. Obviously if you were already a one-pocket player with enough knowledge to play Hopkins then you knew how to play the game already when you played Ronnie:confused: . I guess the entire quote is wrong, correct?

Mea Culpa

Dennis

Dennis, I never even knew this post existed, if I did I honestly wouldn't of commented on it feeling that it's importance, isn't important. And the answer to the other incorrect statement that I played Ronnie after I played Hopkins is also inaccurate. I played Hopkins at least 10 years after I played Ronnie. Like I mentioned, I played Ronnie when I was very young ( about when I was 22 to 24 years old) I played Hopkins when I was around 32 years old.

Now that you know the facts will you allow me to my opinion without accusing me of being on the hustle? Not saying that I don't use some of my post as a way to hustle, but not the one's on this thread. ;)

Billy I.
 

wincardona

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fred bentivegna said:
Willy, just what exactly, other than Hopkins poolroom rather than his basement, was inaccurate with my portrayal? Dat's da story you related to me (and other interested sweators). I will go to my grave remembering the "very hot oven" quote. That was the best part of the whole story. You certainly dont think I'm creative enough to make that line up do you? You dont want the credit for that terrific line?

Plus, anybody that knows you at all, knows that that is certainly you speaking those lines. That is the way you talk and phrase things. A "word detector" would testify that those words didnt come from me.

Beard
I never said that I played Ronnie after I played Hopkins, you must have something mixed up. I may have said that I played Reyes after I played Hopkins and the thing about the oven, but not Ronnie.

Your usually spot on with your recollection of happenings especially if you took part in them, sorry not this one Fred.:confused:

No need to get offended I started losing my memory at an earlier age.:D

Billy I.
 

wincardona

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fred bentivegna said:
Willy, just what exactly, other than Hopkins poolroom rather than his basement, was inaccurate with my portrayal? Dat's da story you related to me (and other interested sweators). I will go to my grave remembering the "very hot oven" quote. That was the best part of the whole story. You certainly dont think I'm creative enough to make that line up do you? You dont want the credit for that terrific line?

Plus, anybody that knows you at all, knows that that is certainly you speaking those lines. That is the way you talk and phrase things. A "word detector" would testify that those words didnt come from me.

Beard
Freddie, I played Artie at Bensingers about 2 years before I played Ronnie. If you remember that it was all happening around the time of the Stardust tournaments. I played Hopkins around the time of the Atlantic City tournaments which was about 10 years later. That's why I believe you got Reye's and Ronnie mixed up, and the... hot oven thing. If you would just put Reye's in the slot you have Ronnie in you may be right.;)

Billy I.
 

wincardona

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wincardona said:
Freddie, I played Artie at Bensingers about 2 years before I played Ronnie. If you remember that it was all happening around the time of the Stardust tournaments. I played Hopkins around the time of the Atlantic City tournaments which was about 10 years later. That's why I believe you got Reye's and Ronnie mixed up, and the... hot oven thing. If you would just put Reye's in the slot you have Ronnie in you may be right.;)

Billy I.
Another eye opener, I played Ronnie before the action in Detroit, and I played both Hopkins and Reye's after the Detroit action had stopped.

I gave Ronnie 8/7 and beat him in Vegas about a year or 2 after I played Hopkins. That's correct I gave Ronnie 8/7 and he was in the oven.

What a difference a few years makes...about 15 years...;)

Billy I.
 
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