B. Shuff vs. S.V.B. 2012 D.C.C.

Tom Wirth

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Dr. Bill,
The whole point of my shot was due to the fact that the combo did look playable from anywhere above the side pocket. This fact is supported by the fact that Shuff shot it and made it. Because IMO the combination had potential it needed to be dealt with early. By shooting the safety it forces the opponent to give up position which in time will allow the combo to safely be broken up.

If the combo had no prospects then shooting the nine or ten is a nice aggressive shot which may get immediate positive results. I like shooting at my hole too but I don't want to take flyers I can easily lose with unless I have no other option. Because the combo was taken and made, and because the cue ball position off the ten ball shot was executed as well as could be expected, IMO the shot officially became a flyer.

Why on Earth would an A player or any player for that matter wish to shoot a difficult bank which has limited continuation possiblities when a miss provides the potentual for the opponent to score several balls off a combo that can be made from the resulting position?

Tom
 

Tom Wirth

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One more point I would like to make in response to your post Bill. The shot I chose is without doubt far easier to execute than either the nine or ten ball shots. It also has a great deal of margin for error. Furthermore, another ball is now moved from a neutral position into a position advantageous to the shooter.

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Why on Earth would an A player or any player for that matter wish to shoot a difficult bank which has limited continuation possiblities when a miss provides the potentual for the opponent to score several balls off a combo that can be made from the resulting position?

Tom
Tom, let me take a whack at these questions if you will.

1. The bank SVB shot was not difficult.

2. It had continuation possibilities.

3. If the resulting position had been the banked ball being near SVB's pocket, the opponent probably would not have shot the 7/15 combo.

4. Nobody except Shuff & Deuel would've shot the 7/15 combo. SVB's pocket being tied up led to the shot at the 7/15.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it:p.

P.S. There was nothing at all wrong with your choice of shot.

Dennis
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom, let me take a whack at these questions if you will.

1. The bank SVB shot was not difficult.

2. It had continuation possibilities.

3. If the resulting position had been the banked ball being near SVB's pocket, the opponent probably would not have shot the 7/15 combo.

4. Nobody except Shuff & Deuel would've shot the 7/15 combo. SVB's pocket being tied up led to the shot at the 7/15.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it:p.

P.S. There was nothing at all wrong with your choice of shot.

Dennis
Dennis,
Allow me to take a rewhack at your points.

1) The ten ball shot was 8 feet or so away from the cue ball and had little room for error getting past the nine ball. The speed was a concern as well. This does not necessarily make the shot difficult for a player like SVB but it does by comparison make the safety far easier to execute.

2) I didn't say the bank had NO continuation possiblities. I said LIMITED.

3) As you would likely say; This is supposition and cannot be known.

4)Again, Guess work. You don't know that only a handfull of players would play the combo regardless of the position of the balls surrounding SVB's pocket. The picture of the table layout could very well be deceiving and the combo may have looked far easier from the players perspective than what we were led to believe. I wonder if SVB even walked around the table to look at the leave from up table. If he didn't than he got what he deserved.

And finally, Thank you for the acknowledgement regarding my choice of shot.

Tom
 

wincardona

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Billy-- You're forgetting about the 11-ball bank into the 6-ball, rolling the CB uptable then down behind the stack. That shot is better than the 10-ball which Shane shot...;) The 6-ball sits as a huge wide ball to make, whereas the 10-ball has to be hit with pinpoint accuracy, and is 8 feet away.

Doc
Art, for Shane as great as a ball striker that he is made the 10ball bank the better option, however, that wouldn't apply to ball strikers like you and me. My choice most likely would of been the 11ball because it's a type of a shot that I'm comfortable in shooting.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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One more point I would like to make in response to your post Bill. The shot I chose is without doubt far easier to execute than either the nine or ten ball shots. It also has a great deal of margin for error. Furthermore, another ball is now moved from a neutral position into a position advantageous to the shooter.

Tom
Tom, I agreed that your shot was a good option, especially for B players in below. However for top ball strikers the 10ball bank is a very strong shot, it sets the table and leaves your opponent in a tough position not to leave another possibly game winning shot in your next inning. But you're certainly not supposed to play the bank if you're going to leave a wired combo for your opponent. Geez.

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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Dr. Bill,
The whole point of my shot was due to the fact that the combo did look playable from anywhere above the side pocket. This fact is supported by the fact that Shuff shot it and made it. Tom
Tom, I agreed that your shot was a good option, especially for B players in below. However for top ball strikers the 10ball bank is a very strong shot, it sets the table and leaves your opponent in a tough position not to leave another possibly game winning shot in your next inning. But you're certainly not supposed to play the bank if you're going to leave a wired combo for your opponent. Geez.

Dr. Bill
Bill,
I don't get it. In one breath you say the ten ball is a better shot for great ball strikers but in the next you say it isn't due to the wired combo. The combo was wired as evidenced by the shot taken and made. It is pretty simple. SVB chose to shoot a shot which he executed properly and gave up six balls as a result. Obviously he chose the wrong shot in this situation for even the best of ball strikers. So considering what took place why are you insistent on placing the safety into a B player category? Geez back.:)

Tom
 

NH Steve

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For Shuff to play that combo, what difference did it make that the balls near Shane's pocket were tied up? I ask that because with that combo angle doesn't shooting it open up and rearrange the balls on Shane's side anyway? That's why frankly, I would have only shot that combo if I was in trouble -- quite the opposite of when the balls are tied up on my opponent's side.

However, it's one of those shots where it worked for him so it must have been right for him, lol :D
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Dennis,
Allow me to take a rewhack at your points.

1) The ten ball shot was 8 feet or so away from the cue ball and had little room for error getting past the nine ball. The speed was a concern as well. This does not necessarily make the shot difficult for a player like SVB but it does by comparison make the safety far easier to execute.The bank was not tough from my view.

2) I didn't say the bank had NO continuation possiblities. I said LIMITED.correctumundo

3) As you would likely say; This is supposition and cannot be known.True enough but it is the logical thought. Why would a player who has a clear shot at the ball by SVB's pocket shoot the 7/15 combo instead?

4)Again, Guess work. You don't know that only a handfull of players would play the combo regardless of the position of the balls surrounding SVB's pocket. The picture of the table layout could very well be deceiving and the combo may have looked far easier from the players perspective than what we were led to believe. I wonder if SVB even walked around the table to look at the leave from up table. If he didn't than he got what he deserved.

And finally, Thank you for the acknowledgement regarding my choice of shot.

Tom
I don't know what you guys call a "wired" combo. Nothing is wired from that distance when the balls are separated as they were. I think the 7/15 combo was a very tough shot and Shuff hit it real good. I also think he shot it because SVB's pocket was tied up, it's the logical assumption.

SVB walked up and looked at the possible combo he would leave. He dismissed it quickly as a real shot possibility. From the time the balls stopped rolling on Shuff's safety it took SVB almost one minute to shoot the straight-back. He certainly didn't think the 7/15 was wired or maybe he just couldn't imagine someone shooting the combo from there. He can imagine it now.

I would have banked the 10 straight-back also.

svb1.jpg

Here are a couple pics of Shuff's shot. The 14 hitting the 4 almost made the 4 take out the 15 ball also. It was a very real possibility, a possibility that was easily foreseen:

svb2.jpg
svb3.jpg
svb4.jpg

Here is the leave for Shuff. The 6, 11, 12 and 10 were never touched:

svb5.jpg
 

tylerdurden

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I don't know, it seems to me shuff would have shot that no matter what. If he shot it after svb got that little tie up, I have to think he'd be shooting it if svb put him in loads of trouble too.

I think it was a good move. It is hard to pull the trigger on a combo like that in an important spot. But Shuff probably figures, correctly, "this guy is beating everybody, I gotta shoot this". I like the logic. If the combo is on, meaning to hit the second ball full, I see that as better than even money shot, don't you guys? If you are playing a guy that is doing a LOT of winning, I'd be trying to think like that - "give me a close to even money shot at the game and I am going".

I remember jimmy lined this one up with his photo editor. Nice call buddy!!
 

wincardona

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Bill,
I don't get it. In one breath you say the ten ball is a better shot for great ball strikers but in the next you say it isn't due to the wired combo. The combo was wired as evidenced by the shot taken and made. It is pretty simple. SVB chose to shoot a shot which he executed properly and gave up six balls as a result. Obviously he chose the wrong shot in this situation for even the best of ball strikers. So considering what took place why are you insistent on placing the safety into a B player category? Geez back.:)

Tom

#79
Yesterday, 01:58 PM
wincardona
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Tom, if the combo was on then Shane shouldn't of shot the bank on the 10ball. (I'M CONFUSED ON WHY SHANE SHOT THE 10BALL THE COMBO WAS MAKEABLE) When he opted to shoot the 10ball bank we would then have to feel that the combo wasn't on, however it was. Of course your shot was the best option..providing the combo was laying good for Shuff, then playing the cue ball in the stack would have even more merit other than just the trapping end of it (Here is where I agree with your option ..for any player being the better option). However, if the combo wasn't on then banking the 10ball was a viable option because of the potential the shot carried. (Here i'm explaining the advantages the shot carries and why a top player would choose it) Good cue ball...possibility of pocketing a ball...creating a better ball running potential. Those are points that are hard to dispute. I would also like to mention that the option that Shane chose was the better option for a top player (Imo) because of the difficulty with the option as opposed to the difficulty with your shot. (Here i'm trying to describe the advantage a great ball striker has over other type of ball strikers) If you as the shooter was guaranteed to hit both options good then I would play Shane's option over your option, however that's not the case. With that understanding then for a B player and below your option becomes more appealing. (The better ball strikers can be more aggressive with their shot selection because the best shot on paper now becomes more of a reality to them when at the table)
Dr. Bill
Tom, i'm confused i'm actually agreeing with you that Shane shouldn't of shot the 10ball bank because of the combo being on. ... And when I said Geez.... it was referring to Shane's poor judgement in shooting the 10ball bank. However, if the combo wasn't on I would agree with Shane for shooting it because he's a great ball striker and it's a type of a shot that can set the table to win the game with, more easily than any other shot...IMO. However, for not so great a ball striker I would look for an option that wouldn't offer Shuff the ability to shoot the combo, yours being one of them.

Dr. Bill

As far as
 
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wincardona

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I don't know, it seems to me shuff would have shot that no matter what. If he shot it after svb got that little tie up, I have to think he'd be shooting it if svb put him in loads of trouble too.

I think it was a good move. It is hard to pull the trigger on a combo like that in an important spot. But Shuff probably figures, correctly, "this guy is beating everybody, I gotta shoot this". I like the logic. If the combo is on, meaning to hit the second ball full, I see that as better than even money shot, don't you guys? If you are playing a guy that is doing a LOT of winning, I'd be trying to think like that - "give me a close to even money shot at the game and I am going".

I remember jimmy lined this one up with his photo editor. Nice call buddy!!
Tyler, you are 100% correct with your assessment of why a player should shoot the combo in this scenario. There is also another reason why Shuff may have shot the combo, and that would be that the... ball position... clearly favored Shane and it looked to be getting worse for Shuff.

In reference to the combination, I believe for a top ball striker like Shuff (a player that shoots first and moves 2nd.) you're never supposed to leave him an opportunity like the one Shane left :confused::sorry

Dr. Bill
 

Tom Wirth

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The most surprising thing to me about Shane's choice is in that he actually went up table to look at the potential leave in shooting the ten and still elected to shoot it. Is he not aware of Brandon's fire power and his willingness to shoot at his hole? The angle for the combo sent the cue ball across the top of the stack which sent balls Brandon's way and the cue ball to Shane's side of the table. Why give a good shooter such an appealing shot when you already have a substantial positional advantage? Especially when that advantage can be maintained without any difficulty.

Bill, Thank you for explaining yourself. :) You had left me with the impression you thought the safety in THIS situation was a "B PLAYER" choice. I was taking exception to that.

Tom
 

Jimmy B

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I don't know, it seems to me shuff would have shot that no matter what. If he shot it after svb got that little tie up, I have to think he'd be shooting it if svb put him in loads of trouble too.

I think it was a good move. It is hard to pull the trigger on a combo like that in an important spot. But Shuff probably figures, correctly, "this guy is beating everybody, I gotta shoot this". I like the logic. If the combo is on, meaning to hit the second ball full, I see that as better than even money shot, don't you guys? If you are playing a guy that is doing a LOT of winning, I'd be trying to think like that - "give me a close to even money shot at the game and I am going".

I remember jimmy lined this one up with his photo editor. Nice call buddy!!


Certainly. I gave them an easy solution that any beginner could have success with, sending the eleven into the combo, locating the cue ball favorably, sending another ball toward your pocket, and leaving the nine and ten as a later threat, totally strangulating your opponent. These guys better hurry up and pick up on all of this, Tyler. Don't they realize you and I only have so much time and advice and patience we can devote?? We are not going to be with them always.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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The most surprising thing to me about Shane's choice is in that he actually went up table to look at the potential leave in shooting the ten and still elected to shoot it. Is he not aware of Brandon's fire power and his willingness to shoot at his hole? The angle for the combo sent the cue ball across the top of the stack which sent balls Brandon's way and the cue ball to Shane's side of the table. Why give a good shooter such an appealing shot when you already have a substantial positional advantage? Especially when that advantage can be maintained without any difficulty.

Tom
Tom,

Regarding SVB's shot choice; The 7/15 was a tough shot and maybe SVB felt Shuff would never shoot it. Don't forget that SVB thinks like a one-pocket player and Shuff is looking to make a ball. I'd feel safe leaving guys that combo. If they made it on me I would leave it again the next time it came up. If they made it a 2nd time I might not leave it a 3rd time. But I might:p. I'm from Missoura, you have to show me:eek: and more than once.

P.S. Glad this thread is finally f@@king over.

Dennis
 

Island Drive

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Thee End....................................................................scratch.....DAM :frus
 

Tom Wirth

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Tom,

Regarding SVB's shot choice; The 7/15 was a tough shot and maybe SVB felt Shuff would never shoot it. Don't forget that SVB thinks like a one-pocket player and Shuff is looking to make a ball. I'd feel safe leaving guys that combo. If they made it on me I would leave it again the next time it came up. If they made it a 2nd time I might not leave it a 3rd time. But I might:p. I'm from Missoura, you have to show me:eek: and more than once.

P.S. Glad this thread is finally f@@king over.
Dennis
Well it took Ya long enough to post both SVB's and Shuff's shots!

As Billy would say.....Geez! :)

Still Dennis, These wwyd threads provide good mental exercise and what else do we really have to do with ourselves when it comes to pool. ( I speak for myself) I hardly pick up my cue anymore. I don't practice unless I have something specific coming up so it makes it tough to step up and play guys like Rob who are more than likely going to rob me like a tourist at a cab stand.

Thanks as always,:)

Tom
 

wincardona

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Certainly. I gave them an easy solution that any beginner could have success with, sending the eleven into the combo, locating the cue ball favorably, sending another ball toward your pocket, and leaving the nine and ten as a later threat, totally strangulating your opponent. These guys better hurry up and pick up on all of this, Tyler. Don't they realize you and I only have so much time and advice and patience we can devote?? We are not going to be with them always.
Jimmy, you're playing really well, your game has jumped several balls since ...well....since..back then.:D;)

Dr. Bill
 
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