B. Hall vs. E. Reyes 2005 D.C.C.

fred bentivegna

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I see what you are saying Fred and I agree that balls on the spot present added difficulties for a player trying to move balls out of play. I wonder though that by playing the rail first shot into the two balls in the upper right corner of the table don't you give up the cross on the three dropping the cue ball below the two again and sending the three to Efren's side of the table? Now if this happens and the view of the three is now block with the use of the two balls on the spot, what do you do? :confused:

There are not many good options for Buddy to choose from in this situation. The one thing you cannot do is allow Efren to get a ball on his side of the table which you can't remove effectively. (I dont care if he has a ball on his side as long as it is laying on the short rail.)

Tom
If you are worrying about Efren banking the 3, then putting you behind the two, not leaving a bank on the 2, or the 3, or the two balls on the spot, you definitely shouldnt be in this game in the first place. :confused: Is that supposed to be like a hanger? Those are exactly the kind of shots I want a guy who is way out in front to shoot at. If I wound up without a bank after he went for the 3 ball I would cut my throat, because I would feel like I was cursed. When my oppo needs one, I want him shooting at 3,4,or 5 to 1 shots, those are the ones that lead to mistakes.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Ok... Lets see now... Im down 7 to 0 against Efren Reyes... I could one rail the 3 ball even though its not going... hmmm... I could swing at the 3 railer on the 3 ball, might go but low percentage.. Im way down on the score, the balls are ok but not great and once again Im playing Efren so I have to come up with the best move that will give me a chance to win..... WHERE IS EFREN'S DRINK LOCATED? (at least youre thinking in the right direction there.):D:p:lol LMFAO

P.S. Tom Wirth has the right shot and move.
(Dont just say that. I outlined all my reasons why you shouldnt ever do that if you didnt have to. Did you actually read what I said? Please explain why every reason I cited was wrong. When I say something I say why. If I had you alone for two weeks I would up your game 8 to 7, but I would need hypnosis to get through to you.:lol)



Hacker, trying to penetrate your cranium I would need a diamond bit drill.

Beard

You and Cardone are O'fer when it comes to agreeing with me (outside of our mutual distaste for you know who) on anything.
 

onepockethacker

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If you are worrying about Efren banking the 3, then putting you behind the two, not leaving a bank on the 2, or the 3, or the two balls on the spot, you definitely shouldnt be in this game in the first place. :confused: Is that supposed to be like a hanger? Those are exactly the kind of shots I want a guy who is way out in front to shoot at. If I wound up without a bank after he went for the 3 ball I would cut my throat, because I would feel like I was cursed. When my oppo needs one, I want him shooting at 3,4,or 5 to 1 shots, those are the ones that lead to mistakes.

Beard
Freddy, Tom isnt saying Efren is going to bank at the 3 ball to make it. He is saying if Efren just crosses the 3 ball to his side of the table and puts the cueball down underneath the 2 ball. If the 2 balls on the spot hide you from seeing the 3 ball what do you do?
 

Cory in dc

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If you are worrying about Efren banking the 3, then putting you behind the two, not leaving a bank on the 2, or the 3, or the two balls on the spot, you definitely shouldnt be in this game in the first place. :confused: Is that supposed to be like a hanger? Those are exactly the kind of shots I want a guy who is way out in front to shoot at. If I wound up without a bank after he went for the 3 ball I would cut my throat, because I would feel like I was cursed. When my oppo needs one, I want him shooting at 3,4,or 5 to 1 shots, those are the ones that lead to mistakes.

Beard
"(I dont care if he has a ball on his side as long as it is laying on the short rail.)"

I think Tom's envisioning Efren putting the 3 on the long rail, a bit up towards the side pocket, where the spotted balls and the 2 protect it. Then Buddy can't leave the CB uptable.

An outcome sort of like this:

.

Buddy would have a bank on the 13, but he would be betting the game on the shot (or muscling the cue ball). It's definitely easier than the 1-rail or 3-rail on the 3 ball in the original position.
 

onepockethacker

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(Dont just say that. I outlined all my reasons why you shouldnt ever do that if you didnt have to. Did you actually read what I said? Please explain why every reason I cited was wrong. When I say something I say why. If I had you alone for two weeks I would up your game 8 to 7, but I would need hypnosis to get through to you.:lol)



Hacker, trying to penetrate your cranium I would need a diamond bit drill.

Beard

You and Cardone are O'fer when it comes to agreeing with me (outside of our mutual distaste for you know who) on anything.
Well Freddy.. Me and Billy got to thinking and we decided we would never be be able to shoot an accustats 1000% at the table but we figured maybe we could from the chair.. So we decided that the safest way to shoot a high accustats score from the chair is just disagree with whatever you say!! :lol LMFAO
Freddy with all due respect your soft kick on the balls up table isn't worth much in my opinion. I like opening the balls on the spot and especially putting one more on my side. Your in deep shit and you are probably going to need help from Efren to pull this off. Why not give him more balls to worry about. It don't matter if you lose 8 to 0 or 8 to 7 so give your self the best possible chance to run alot of balls in case efren screws up.

P.S. My old saying is... You cant make ice cream out of horse shit but in your case im going to shoot for yogurt :D
 

onepockethacker

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"(I dont care if he has a ball on his side as long as it is laying on the short rail.)"

I think Tom's envisioning Efren putting the 3 on the long rail, a bit up towards the side pocket, where the spotted balls and the 2 protect it. Then Buddy can't leave the CB uptable.

An outcome sort of like this:

.

Buddy would have a bank on the 13, but he would be betting the game on the shot (or muscling the cue ball). It's definitely easier than the 1-rail or 3-rail on the 3 ball in the original position.
You got it
 

Cowboy Dennis

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There aint no shot here, down 7 zip. Too many balls out of play. I would show patience and allow balls to accumulate. I would try and leave my "soldiers" in place and then keep trying to improve my situation. One way would be to make a seemingly passive shot and kick softly into the six ball cub on the back rail and open them up slightly, possibly affording me a chance to somehow put them in play on my side later. Marcel Camp would call that a pass shot, whereby you just wait for something better to show up.

To me, one of the weakest things you can do in onepocket is to shoot at a dim- chance bank where you cant get either, more, or enough balls to justify the risk. You should instead use your inning to try and accumulate more balls for your side, and leave the bank there to be used possibly at a time when making it would be more beneficial.

Beard
I don't see anything particularly wrong with kicking softly at the 6 ball except that Effie would just move the 2 ball. As long as you keep denying your opponent a shot then he can't win, it's not passive or fruitless to do this, it's what many one-pocket games are made of.

One thing I know for certain is this: Efren has a weak endgame and the longer you can keep him(and many like him) playing dinky safeties the more likely it is that he will do something stupid to win the game. If he fails he'll probably sell out some shots.

In this layout I would probably kick at the 6. The game is lost already, now all you can do is win it.

Dennis
 

Tom Wirth

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If you are worrying about Efren banking the 3, then putting you behind the two, not leaving a bank on the 2, or the 3, or the two balls on the spot, you definitely shouldnt be in this game in the first place. :confused: Is that supposed to be like a hanger? Those are exactly the kind of shots I want a guy who is way out in front to shoot at. If I wound up without a bank after he went for the 3 ball I would cut my throat, because I would feel like I was cursed. When my oppo needs one, I want him shooting at 3,4,or 5 to 1 shots, those are the ones that lead to mistakes.

Beard
Freddy!!!

I'm not suggesting Efren will shoot for his hole. My God! What I am suggesting is Efren will play the three ball across the table TO his side of the table somewhere in the direction of his side pocket! The cue ball floats down table in the direction of Buddy's pocket picking up the side rail along the way.

I thought that would be obvious to all. My apologies if I didn't make that clear.

Tom
 

Tom Wirth

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"(I dont care if he has a ball on his side as long as it is laying on the short rail.)"

I think Tom's envisioning Efren putting the 3 on the long rail, a bit up towards the side pocket, where the spotted balls and the 2 protect it. Then Buddy can't leave the CB uptable.

An outcome sort of like this:

.

Buddy would have a bank on the 13, but he would be betting the game on the shot (or muscling the cue ball). It's definitely easier than the 1-rail or 3-rail on the 3 ball in the original position.
Thank you Cory for the illustration. That is very close to what I envisioned but I think it would be a rather simple chore to get the cue ball much closer to the foot rail, and still cover the three, and make the bank Buddy is left with much tougher.



Freddy, when have you ever seen me diagram a shot like banking the three for the win in a situation like this one under any circumstances related to score or otherwise? Please give me a little more credit than that next time.

Tom
 
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fred bentivegna

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Thank you Cory for the illustration. That is very close to what I envisioned but I think it would be a rather simple chore to get the cue ball much closer to the foot rail, and still cover the three, and make the bank Buddy is left with much tougher.



Freddy, when have you ever seen me diagram a shot like banking the three for the win in a situation like this one under any circumstances related to score or otherwise? Please give me a little more credit than that next time.

Tom
Ok Tom, that makes a lot more sense, but I still endorse kicking softly at the 6. Because to leave the cueball where I cant see or KICK at the 3 ball is a very small window. Even in the diagram Cory from DC put up -- a worst case scenario, I still have two good options. One, is to two rail the six ball (now that it has been put into play) and stop the cue ball on the end rail and let Effie shoot at his game ball from there and hope he misses. Many times even if he rolls the 3 ball it has a chance of bubbling in the corner and heading toward the other pocket.
Two, with the 3 ball out of the way, you now have a real good chance at making a straight back with the 11 ball, pulling the cue ball over to the long rail and then down to the back rail with a bad angle on the 3 ball. Let him shoot.

Ya'll forget that I have played Efren more onepocket than any other human, and I know that he is a human, and he misses under pressure just like any other human.

I look at the situation from my point of view, when I have a big lead the last thing I want to have to do is have to bring a long "come" shot that has a possibility of either losing or putting my oppo back into the game. If I am going to shoot at something I want the penalties to be much lower.

Beard
 

Tom Wirth

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Ok Tom, that makes a lot more sense, but I still endorse kicking softly at the 6. Because to leave the cueball where I cant see or KICK at the 3 ball is a very small window. Even in the diagram Cory from DC put up -- a worst case scenario, I still have two good options. One, is to two rail the six ball (now that it has been put into play) and stop the cue ball on the end rail and let Effie shoot at his game ball from there and hope he misses. Many times even if he rolls the 3 ball it has a chance of bubbling in the corner and heading toward the other pocket.
Two, with the 3 ball out of the way, you now have a real good chance at making a straight back with the 11 ball, pulling the cue ball over to the long rail and then down to the back rail with a bad angle on the 3 ball. Let him shoot.

Ya'll forget that I have played Efren more onepocket than any other human, and I know that he is a human, and he misses under pressure just like any other human.

I look at the situation from my point of view, when I have a big lead the last thing I want to have to do is have to bring a long "come" shot that has a possibility of either losing or putting my oppo back into the game. If I am going to shoot at something I want the penalties to be much lower.

Beard
Freddy, So if I have it right you are committed to the kick on the six in the original post knowing that Efren has a reply which will leave you in a compromised position. And you subsequent reply is to now two rail the six which requires you to send the cue call 9feet just to make contact again knowing that you are about to leave Efren straight in on the three and HOPE he misses. Does that about sum it up?

And that scenario is in your opinion is a better option than crossing the ball on the spot and leaving the cue ball on the top rail because of some basic rule of thumb you adopted a long time ago?

BTW; I disagree that the cross over of the three leaves a small window. With the two balls on the spot and the two ball as a helper there is a great deal of blockers to use here. And with Efren's touch there is little doubt that Efren can lay the cue ball and three ball precisely where he wants which will in all likelihood be on the bottom rail taking away your second option. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't bet against him.

I will leave it to others to decide.

Tom
 
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fred bentivegna

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Freddy, So if I have it right you are committed to the kick on the six in the original post knowing that Efren has a reply which will leave you in a compromised position. (compromised, is your opinion, not mine. It would be a miracle if I couldnt see or KICK at the 3 ball)And you subsequent reply is to now two rail the six which requires you to sen the cue call 9feet just to make contact again knowing that you are about to leave Efren straight in on the three and HOPE he misses. Does that about sum it up?

Yes, but in the diagram the cue ball is only 7 ft away. All I would want to do is keep the cue ball on or near the back rail. Sure he could probably make the 3 ball from there, he is probably around even money to do it, but we keep forgetting that he has a 7 zip lead. How big a favorite is he with that? The last thing I want to do to win with a 7 zip lead is shoot at an even money shot that might put my oppo back into the game if I miss it.
And that scenario is in your opinion is a better option than crossing the ball on the spot and leaving the cue ball on the top rail because of some basic rule of thumb you adopted a long time ago?(You say that as if I said something dumb. What I gave everybody with that "rule of thumb" is onepocket and bank pool gold. I gave all the reasons why it was strong to do that. Give me the reasons why it is not. I said the hardest balls to clear away from the foot rail are balls that are spotted. I would like to know how anyone can refute that.)

BTW; I disagree that the cross over of the three leaves a small window. With the two balls on the spot and the two ball as a helper there is a great deal of blockers to use here. And with Efren's touch there is little doubt that Efren can lay the cue ball and three ball precisely where he wants which will in all likelihood be on the bottom rail taking away your second option. Let me put it this way, I wouldn't bet against him.

I will leave it to others to decide.

Tom
The "others to decide" will probably not penetrate my brain either. After 50 years battling the best players in the world, I am here to give help, I seldom, sorry to say, get any.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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If you two idiots want to piss on this thread I guarantee you one ****ing thing: It will be the last WWYD thread I post this year.

I'm tired of this crap.

Dennis
I will be the first to recant my little jibe. :sorry Just force of habit.

Beard
 

Tom Wirth

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Freddy, First of all I want you to know I have great respect for the One Pocket knowledge you have acquired over these many years. There is no disrespect intended in anything I have written in response to your selection. I also wish to extend my thanks for the contributions you make to this site. I believe we all benefit from your input.

That being said the statement that you will be only 7feet away from the two rail shot on the six is likely incorrect. You may be only 7feet away now but after Efren moves the three to the opposite side rail the cue ball will be hugging the bottom rail. But lets say Efren only has a fifty percent probability of pulling off this shot. What then? What have you gained from your kick shot on the six? You didn't move any ball into a more advantageous position. And now you are relegated to clearing the three ball from Efren's side of the table.

On the other hand, if Efren does hide the three and also leave the cue ball on the bottom rail you now can't play that two rail shot because you won't be able to kill the cue ball on the top rail. The straight back bank is there but do you really want to bet the game on that shot? So what do you do now?

Respectfully,

Tom
 

NH Steve

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steve
that was freddys plan too...:)
Thanks Larry, I posted during a quick break at work and sorry did not read the whole thread :eek:

But I am 100% with Freddy on this shot -- including the reasons why -- especially, "you don't have to hit a home run every turn at the table".

There is another reason that I don't think Freddy mentioned (but I am just now catching up, so maybe he did). It gets into another little rule of thumb that I use in situations like this. That is the idea of "getting under the balls when you want them pushed uptable, and getting on top of the balls when you want them kept in play". Of course, like with any rule of thumb, there are a million exceptions. And of course, ideally you would also move a ball (or more) to your hole, and also "protect it" at the same. I just did not see any obvious opportunities to do that in the short time I looked at Dennis's opening diagram.

Now I will go back and read more thoroughly, and also look more carefully at the diagram (maybe even set one or more of the shots up on a table) and maybe I will see it differently, now that I am another year older :)
 

Cowboy Dennis

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The guys who are saying this shot is no good are fantasizing. First of all, for Efren to get a shot at the 3 ball I would have to leave it for him. Then, if I did leave it, do you really think it's that easy for someone to hit the 3 ball without hitting the sidepocket tit and rolling the cueball down by my pocket? I don't think that shot's available from there. I think my opponent would have to hit the 2 which may be a double-kiss, the 7 (on the spot), or the 13 ball. Those shots failing to offer anything he would have to hit the 6 ball and leave me uptable.

Dennis

cbd1.jpg
 

Tom Wirth

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I guess I have a vivid imagination, Dennis. You do too if you think getting past the point of the side pocket is difficult. And to imagine your chances of freezing on the six so tight as to prevent Efren from seeing the three ball requires drugs.

Dennis, the shot I have described is a staple shot in One Pocket. You've been around the block enough to know that. Don't play dumb.

Tom
 

tylerdurden

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Tom, your shot was one of the first ones I considered. However, that shot violates one of my most stringent principles when I am trying to accumulate balls for when I am way behind (and I modestly believe that I can put more balls in play faster than any human, especially in bank pool), and that principle is to not disturb balls on the spot when trying to accumulate. Why? Because shooting off balls in back pockets and then spotting them up, is one of the best ways to accumulate balls at the foot of the table. Reason? Because looking at it from the other side of the equation, if you are trying to take balls out of play, the hardest balls to take out of play are a row of spotted balls. Think of spotted balls being deeply entrenched in their battle positions.

When I am trying to take balls out of play the first thing I consider, is finding a way to open up the row of spotted balls somehow.

If anyone can challenge this reasoning, I would love to learn something at my advanced age.

Beard

One more thing. ...Answering the talk that my original shot was too passive. One thing I learned in my 50 plus in the underworld was, that it is foolish to try and hit a home run every time up at bat. Many times there is nothing to do but try and stall, buy some time, and maybe things will get better.
Very nicely put, and a very very good point.
 

tylerdurden

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Ok... Lets see now... Im down 7 to 0 against Efren Reyes... I could one rail the 3 ball even though its not going... hmmm... I could swing at the 3 railer on the 3 ball, might go but low percentage.. Im way down on the score, the balls are ok but not great and once again Im playing Efren so I have to come up with the best move that will give me a chance to win..... WHERE IS EFREN'S DRINK LOCATED? :D:p:lol LMFAO
P.S. Tom Wirth has the right shot and move.
Please, that bank goes and you know it. If you don't feel like shooting at it, that's another story altogether.

This isn't the same exact angle, and he is further away I know, but watch (not that you need a lesson) how Brumback strokes these. This bank definitely will go with that stroke, and get you on the stripe too. It is at about 1:50 or so, he shoots quite a few of them.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cRe9nL2rk[/ame]

I am just saying the obvious, but all the body language, and the mojo is with the other guy at 7 to 0. I can literally think of one or two times where a great player came back from a deficit like this, the varner hopkins 100 min rack. Varner had to shoot about 30 great saftey shots just to stay in that game. He somehow executed every one perfectly. You have to ask yourself, againat a great player, you are going to have to be executing great shots just to stay in the game, the longer the game goes. Is that more difficult than the bank? Varner did bring that game back to a contest btw, and still lost.
 
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