B. Hall vs. E. Reyes 2005 D.C.C.

petie

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...........
Luke, as I understand your shot, you shoot three rails and duck whitie under the stripe near the head rail. In order to keep Efren from shooting the stripe, you must be planning to be on it. If all this is true, what if you make the 3 railer? Won't you be hooked from running more balls?
 

tylerdurden

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...............mmmm..Just echoing similar thoughts..http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=115471&postcount=10
PS..You misspelled 'bitch'..:cool:

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PSS..Tyler, I do not plan on making the bank, shooting it at pocket speed !..(its about 1 in 10/15)...If that's the best shot I'm going to get to win the game, I might as well shoot the 3-railer, and play shape !..(assuming I don't get the kiss, which looks to me, to be almost unavoidable)...I'm simply trying to leave Efren 'awkward', and try to get a BETTER chance at getting a few balls !...Rome was not built in a day, ya know !
Yes, I don't hate your shot or anything, but I think efren is going to be able to get out of it well almost every time. I like billy's shot a little more than yours personally, he wants to go toward that 14, maybe even slide right behind it. The only thing there is you may leave the 14.

To win this game against efren, I figure I am going to have to make one or two stellar shots. This situation here I'd definitely be swinging away trying to hit the home run and make it 7 to 5 or even 7 to 6.
 

petie

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To be or not to be...that is the question. It really is. To go or not to go. If you decide to go, which at first thought I figured was the only reasonable option, you must start with a shot that keeps that possibility alive. That is you must make a ball and get a reward. If you decide not to go, as Freddie suggests and I now think is the most doable option, you must commit to the shot that assures that Efren won't run out from the leave you give him on this shot. I like Freddie's shot because I can execute it most of the time and it keeps me alive for a shot or two.
 

lll

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There aint no shot here, down 7 zip. Too many balls out of play. I would show patience and allow balls to accumulate. I would try and leave my "soldiers" in place and then keep trying to improve my situation. One way would be to make a seemingly passive shot and kick softly into the six ball cub on the back rail and open them up slightly, possibly affording me a chance to somehow put them in play on my side later. Marcel Camp would call that a pass shot, whereby you just wait for something better to show up.

To me, one of the weakest things you can do in onepocket is to shoot at a dim- chance bank where you cant get either, more, or enough balls to justify the risk. You should instead use your inning to try and accumulate more balls for your side, and leave the bank there to be used possibly at a time when making it would be more beneficial.

Beard
Shit. That advice is worth another $30 book. I'm not jokin'. Even if this were not the best advice for this shot in this game, its damn good advice to add to your quiver when playing one pocket. Its part of the mind set.
petie i agree with you completely (except the value should be higher...:))
a golden nugget to keep in the think tank.
a concept to keep in mind
thanks freddy
 

Tom Wirth

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My turn to chime in.

The three rail shot on the three cannot go. The two is in the way even if the double kiss is not there. BTW; This three rail shot is eerily similar to the three rail shot Buddy shot a few threads ago. As you may remember in that case Buddy narrowly missed the kiss but made the ball. He can't do that this time.

If he missed the kiss that time he can probably miss the kiss this time too. In this case there is now another obstacle to getting this ball down table and in play. The loose ball up table must be avoided. This shouldn't be too difficult to do but must be considered. But, isn't the threeball for the most part already in play? And doesn't its position favor Buddy greatly? Why move it unless you plan to make it now?

This brings me to my shot of choice. If I'm going to shoot the three, I am shooting it with speed and with the intention of making the bank and following it up with more. Total aggression here. This is a tough shot and what happens if I miss it? It goes back up table and Buddy has lost the opportunity to get more balls in play as Freddy made clear is necessary in his point. Needing all the balls Buddy should definitely be thinking about getting more balls in play. But as Dr. Bill said, Fred's shot is too passive. That shot doesn't really DO anything but stall.

I like banking the ball on the spot back across to my side of the table and drifting the cue ball as close to the top rail as possible. By doing that I now have five balls in serious play and have presented Efren a difficult task to perform in preventing Buddy from finding a more viable shot than the three ball bank.

Tom
 
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wincardona

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My turn to chime in.

The three rail shot on the three cannot go. The two is in the way even if the double kiss is not there. BTW; This three rail shot is eerily similar to the three rail shot Buddy shot a few threads ago. As you may remember in that case Buddy narrowly missed the kiss but made the ball. He can't do that this time.

If he missed the kiss that time he can probably miss the kiss this time too. In this case there is now another obstacle to getting this ball down table and in play. The loose ball up table must be avoided. This shouldn't be too difficult to do but must be considered. But, isn't the threeball for the most part already in play? And doesn't its position favor Buddy greatly? Why move it unless you plan to make it now?

This brings me to my shot of choice. If I'm going to shoot the three, I am shooting it with speed and with the intention of making the bank and following it up with more. Total aggression here. This is a tough shot and what happens if I miss it? It goes back up table and Buddy has lost the opportunity to get more balls in play as Freddy made clear is necessary in his point. Needing all the balls Buddy should definitely be thinking about getting more balls in play. But as Dr. Bill said, Fred's shot is too passive. That shot doesn't really DO anything but stall.

I like banking the ball on the spot back across to my side of the table and drifting the cue ball as close to the top rail as possible. By doing that I now have five balls in serious play and have presented Efren a difficult task to perform in preventing Buddy from finding a more viable shot than the three ball bank.

Tom
Tom, your shot like Fred's shot to me is too passive, sorry. By opening up the two balls on the foot spot you are giving your opponent more options to move balls 'up table' Balls frozen on the foot spot are often difficult to move (which favors Buddy) Buddy's objective is either to get balls down table or position balls that are difficult to move up table, which by banking the 3ball is what he'll be doing. If he banks the 3ball and positions it where Reyes cant see it then Reyes will be forced to play conservatively which may allow Buddy to continue in developing a stronger position. That's the part that I was referring to when I mentioned that "applying pressure" was whats needed from this situation with the score and ball position referenced. I would really be surprised to see Buddy play any other shot than the 3ball bank option.

I play mostly cue ball with the 3ball option, at the same time trying to drop the 3ball under the 2ball near the foot rail. If the 2ball snookers Reyes from moving the 3ball, then Buddies in business.

Also, I don't go cross table with the cue ball I apply two tips of right english and go toward the 14ball in hopes to get under the 14ball and possibly freeze to the ball. This method allows you to use both the 13ball and 2ball as blockers, plus it takes away the side rail as an escape avenue for Reyes, by taking away all soft kicks off the side rail toward the banked 3ball, if it should end up near the bottom rail close to the pocket. And yes I do understand that it's possible to sell out a shot on the 14ball, however, the likelihood of that happening is not enough to deter me from shooting the shot the way I described. Too much up side with the shot for me to get scared, plus when trailing by this much you are most likely going to have to gamble at some point especially if you expect to win against a great player like Reyes.


Dr. Bill
 
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lll

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tom
i think this is your shot. i put a fork in the road since we could discuss if anyone wants to where to drift the cue ball
tt2.jpg
 

NH Steve

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I know what I want to do with the cue ball, but I am not sure if the route is there -- I really want to lag the cue ball up against those two balls way up next to the far corner pocket (6 & 9?). I would even consider two-railing to get there if the one rail path is not available. It would be a nice big target for the two rail if that was necessary -- just don't scratch!
 

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lll

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There aint no shot here, down 7 zip. Too many balls out of play. I would show patience and allow balls to accumulate. I would try and leave my "soldiers" in place and then keep trying to improve my situation. One way would be to make a seemingly passive shot and kick softly into the six ball cub on the back rail and open them up slightly, possibly affording me a chance to somehow put them in play on my side later. Marcel Camp would call that a pass shot, whereby you just wait for something better to show up.

To me, one of the weakest things you can do in onepocket is to shoot at a dim- chance bank where you cant get either, more, or enough balls to justify the risk. You should instead use your inning to try and accumulate more balls for your side, and leave the bank there to be used possibly at a time when making it would be more beneficial.

Beard
steve
that was freddys plan too...:)
 

Tom Wirth

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That is pretty accurate, Larry.
Ideally, the goal of this shot is to get the cue ball as close to the back rail as possible and also use the spotted ball to block view of the two ball. This forces Efren to play off the remaining spotted ball by playing it back up table. At this point Buddy now has developed momentum and has more balls in play and may even now have a more advantageous opportunity to score a ball with a bank or possibly find an additional ball he can get into play.

The shot on the three ball if not hit well may loose him momentum. That is the risk behind shooting the three and not placing it in a strong location. This shot is a tough one to hit well if shot by lagging the ball. That is why I suggest if you plan to play the three, play it to make it and run a few balls should you hit it right.

Tom
 

One Pocket Ghost

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My turn to chime in.

The three rail shot on the three cannot go. The two is in the way BTW; This three rail shot is eerily similar to the three rail shot Buddy shot a few threads ago. As you may remember in that case Buddy narrowly missed the kiss but made the ball.

If he missed the kiss that time he can probably miss the kiss this time too.

Tom

Tom, Tom, Tom....I had the veracity of your posting on such a high level :) but now you've forced me to lower you down..:(...

On the contrary, the 3-railer certainly does have room to go..:heh..the two is not in the way..as long as the table is not playing long, i.e. with new cloth....for future reference, let me show you how to determine this (as far as us being shown and using computer screen renditions of the shot situation in question)...just hold a straight edge on your computer screen along the tangent line...when applicable, I always do this before suggesting a shot...

In this particular case, if you hold a straight edge from 1 diamond below the side pocket on Efren's long rail (where the 3ball will hit it's third rail) to the center of Buddy's pocket, you'll see that it has room to go.

- Ghost
 
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Tom Wirth

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Ghost, I'll give it to you that maybe it can squeeze between the ball on the spot and the two. If the three hits the two spotted balls, that's not bad either.

Of all the shots suggested the one I like the least is the lag shot on the three. Not that it is a bad shot, it is just that I think there are better ones.

Tom
 

fred bentivegna

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Shit. That advice is worth another $30 book. I'm not jokin'. Even if this were not the best advice for this shot in this game, its damn good advice to add to your quiver when playing one pocket. Its part of the mind set.
Thank you. Thank you, Petie. If I can open up one mind I feel justified. I have tried to beat "accumulation" into stubborn brains like Bobby Hunter and other good shooters and usually to no avail (ie., mule-heads like Incardona)

Accumulate. It is also one of Artie'e deepest secrets. It is no coincidence that when Artie gets a shot he has a passel of balls to shoot off. He waits and moves until he has a log jam in front of his pocket.

Beard

'nuff said, I aint gonna push it. Just ya'll keep shooting at the moon.
 

fred bentivegna

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My turn to chime in.

The three rail shot on the three cannot go. The two is in the way even if the double kiss is not there. BTW; This three rail shot is eerily similar to the three rail shot Buddy shot a few threads ago. As you may remember in that case Buddy narrowly missed the kiss but made the ball. He can't do that this time.

If he missed the kiss that time he can probably miss the kiss this time too. In this case there is now another obstacle to getting this ball down table and in play. The loose ball up table must be avoided. This shouldn't be too difficult to do but must be considered. But, isn't the threeball for the most part already in play? And doesn't its position favor Buddy greatly? Why move it unless you plan to make it now?

This brings me to my shot of choice. If I'm going to shoot the three, I am shooting it with speed and with the intention of making the bank and following it up with more. Total aggression here. This is a tough shot and what happens if I miss it? It goes back up table and Buddy has lost the opportunity to get more balls in play as Freddy made clear is necessary in his point. Needing all the balls Buddy should definitely be thinking about getting more balls in play. But as Dr. Bill said, Fred's shot is too passive. That shot doesn't really DO anything but stall.

I like banking the ball on the spot back across to my side of the table and drifting the cue ball as close to the top rail as possible. By doing that I now have five balls in serious play and have presented Efren a difficult task to perform in preventing Buddy from finding a more viable shot than the three ball bank.

Tom
Tom, your shot was one of the first ones I considered. However, that shot violates one of my most stringent principles when I am trying to accumulate balls for when I am way behind (and I modestly believe that I can put more balls in play faster than any human, especially in bank pool), and that principle is to not disturb balls on the spot when trying to accumulate. Why? Because shooting off balls in back pockets and then spotting them up, is one of the best ways to accumulate balls at the foot of the table. Reason? Because looking at it from the other side of the equation, if you are trying to take balls out of play, the hardest balls to take out of play are a row of spotted balls. Think of spotted balls being deeply entrenched in their battle positions.

When I am trying to take balls out of play the first thing I consider, is finding a way to open up the row of spotted balls somehow.

If anyone can challenge this reasoning, I would love to learn something at my advanced age.

Beard

One more thing. ...Answering the talk that my original shot was too passive. One thing I learned in my 50 plus in the underworld was, that it is foolish to try and hit a home run every time up at bat. Many times there is nothing to do but try and stall, buy some time, and maybe things will get better.
 
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Island Drive

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First inclination

First inclination

High follow thru on the fifteen, lay cue by upper r/h pocket. 15 could easily bank cross corner (15 has draw) considering a high spinning cue ball is needed to get whitey up table. This is a draw shot using Follow..
 

lll

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Tom, your shot was one of the first ones I considered. However, that shot violates one of my most stringent principles when I am trying to accumulate balls for when I am way behind (and I modestly believe that I can put more balls in play faster than any human, especially in bank pool), and that principle is to not disturb balls on the spot when trying to accumulate. Why? Because shooting off balls in back pockets and then spotting them up, is one of the best ways to accumulate balls at the foot of the table. Reason? Because looking at it from the other side of the equation, if you are trying to take balls out of play, the hardest balls to take out of play are a row of spotted balls. Think of spotted balls being deeply entrenched in their battle positions.

When I am trying to take balls out of play the first thing I consider, is finding a way to open up the row of spotted balls somehow.

If anyone can challenge this reasoning, I would love to learn something at my advanced age.

Beard

One more thing. ...Answering the talk that my original shot was too passive. One thing I learned in my 50 plus in the underworld was, that it is foolish to try and hit a home run every time up at bat. Many times there is nothing to do but try and stall, buy some time, and maybe things will get better.
you definitely have a way with words..:D
 

onepockethacker

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Ok... Lets see now... Im down 7 to 0 against Efren Reyes... I could one rail the 3 ball even though its not going... hmmm... I could swing at the 3 railer on the 3 ball, might go but low percentage.. Im way down on the score, the balls are ok but not great and once again Im playing Efren so I have to come up with the best move that will give me a chance to win..... WHERE IS EFREN'S DRINK LOCATED? :D:p:lol LMFAO
P.S. Tom Wirth has the right shot and move.
 
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Tom Wirth

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I see what you are saying Fred and I agree that balls on the spot present added difficulties for a player trying to move balls out of play. I wonder though that by playing the rail first shot into the two balls in the upper right corner of the table don't you give up the cross on the three dropping the cue ball below the two again and sending the three to Efren's side of the table? Now if this happens and the view of the three is now block with the use of the two balls on the spot, what do you do? :confused:

There are not many good options for Buddy to choose from in this situation. The one thing you cannot do is allow Efren to get a ball on his side of the table which you can't remove effectively.

Tom
 
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