Another Tough Choice

Cowboy Dennis

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One Pocket Ghost said:
So far everybody's loving the bank, but I don't think it's so definitely the only choice...after all, all you have to do is hit the bank a couple of inches too soft or two hard, have it end up like in my wei diagram, and your opponent just banks the 5 straight back over for an easy safety >>>

Conversely, a decent shooter is going to probably have about a 70-80% likelihood of making the cut shot.

- Goast



[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4ATIe1EaPl2HYdf2LaqN2OVUj1PbPb4QdGr1YaPl4YNEo2YMlw1kbPb1kaou1kbur@[/CUETABLE]
You can always find something wrong with any shot when there are choices to be made. That's why you bet your money on your shot and we bet ours on ours:)

Take the almost certain 5 ball and no second shot or take a gamble and 2 rail the 1 and maybe get 2 if it pays off, or even just get a superior table position if you get the 1 near your pocket and block him from seeing it.

That's why we play.

Merry Christmas Ghosty:D .

Dennis
 

timdog24

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wincardona said:
Bruce, this isn't one of your top interest getters, not much of a choice in terms of instructional value but I will offer my opinion on my choice and why, without the complicated %:p

The ball that speaks loudest here isn't the 1 ball nor the 5 ball, it's the 8 ball. The 8 ball is telling you not to cut the 5 ball because he will be there to create problems for you, so a much safer choice would be the double bank on the 5 ball, which by the way carries a much better chance of getting 2 balls or even getting out. Had the 8 ball been positioned closer to the 12 ball I would then shoot the 5 ball, in a heart beat. But it isn't so I choose to slow my heart beat and shoot the double bank.:D

Billy I.
Billy or anyone else, can you explain why the 8 is "telling you not to shoot the 5"? Because of the 3 railer? How does my opponent get to shoot that shot when I'm a favorite to make/hang up the 5?
 

wincardona

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timdog24 said:
Billy or anyone else, can you explain why the 8 is "telling you not to shoot the 5"? Because of the 3 railer? How does my opponent get to shoot that shot when I'm a favorite to make/hang up the 5?
If I shoot the 5 ball i'm not rolling it, i'm drawing the cue ball twice across table for position on the 1 ball and a possible out. The 8 ball is a ball that could be in the path of the cue ball if the shot is not struck well, or if you dog the stroke on the shot. But if you're going to shoot the 5 ball rolling it is not the right shot imo, because if you miss it you give up the move and a possible return bank on it. Playing the 1 ball twice across gives you a chance to get out and you will always have the move up on your opponent, which could be the difference in winning or losing. Bottom line, the shooter, providing that he is a decent player has a big advantage in this game, but he must try to get more than one ball from this position because it's a game winning position.

Billy I.
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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wincardona said:
If I shoot the 5 ball i'm not rolling it, i'm drawing the cue ball twice across table for position on the 1 ball and a possible out. The 8 ball is a ball that could be in the path of the cue ball if the shot is not struck well, or if you dog the stroke on the shot. But if you're going to shoot the 1 ball rolling it is not the right shot imo, because if you miss it you give up the move and a possible return bank on it. Playing the 5 ball twice across gives you a chance to get out and you will always have the move up on your opponent, which could be the difference in winning or losing. Bottom line, the shooter, providing that he is a decent player has a big advantage in this game, but he must try to get more than one ball from this position because it's a game winning position.

Billy I.

Billy....I can see now why Artie would have heart attacks when you were his partner...:eek:...

When I had this shot in the game, I took a look at the possibility of cutting the 5 and coming back across for shape on the 1...but the 12 and 8 balls are sitting right there in the natural path for that position option - making it a definite no-go, imo...

You mention giving up the move by rolling the 5 and missing....well if you shoot your shot and miss the 5, and the cueball runs into the 12 or the 8, you'll be doing worse than giving up the move - you might be giving up the game...:rolleyes:...:cool:

- Gho$t
 
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timdog24

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wincardona said:
If I shoot the 5 ball i'm not rolling it, i'm drawing the cue ball twice across table for position on the 1 ball and a possible out. The 8 ball is a ball that could be in the path of the cue ball if the shot is not struck well, or if you dog the stroke on the shot. But if you're going to shoot the 1 ball rolling it is not the right shot imo, because if you miss it you give up the move and a possible return bank on it. Playing the 5 ball twice across gives you a chance to get out and you will always have the move up on your opponent, which could be the difference in winning or losing. Bottom line, the shooter, providing that he is a decent player has a big advantage in this game, but he must try to get more than one ball from this position because it's a game winning position.

Billy I.
You couldn't have explained it any better. I would usually try to cinch the free ball and duck in these situations. I always like to read WHY the better players choose certain shots. This is why I am a big fan of this site. Thanks. And of course, thanks to the Ghost, Dennis, and others who keep posting these "what would you do"s.
 

wincardona

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Billy....I can see now why Artie would have heart attacks when you were his partner...:eek:...

When I had this shot in the game, I took a look at the possibility of cutting the 5 and coming back across for shape on the 1...but the 12 and 8 balls are sitting right there in the natural path for that position option - making it a definite no-go, imo...

You mention giving up the move by rolling the 5 and missing....well if you shoot your shot and miss the 5, and the cueball runs into the 12 or the 8, you'll be doing worse than giving up the move - you might be giving up the game...:rolleyes:...:cool:

- Gho$t
Bruce, in post #20 I clearly say that i'm banking the 1 ball over the 5 ball cut, but if I must shoot the 5 ball i'm playing to get more then just the 1 ball. If you choose to shoot the 5 ball, you can roll it if that's your style, well that's not my style and we all must play what we feel best suits our game. The 8 ball is a big ball in the path of the position for the 1 ball if you choose to play position for the 1 ball. I feel that if I choose to play the 5 ball cut I will stroke it enough to clear the 8 ball for position on the 1 ball. Any top player confronted with this situation will do the same. But at age 67 with my dimiinished offensive ability, i'm electing to bank the 1 ball. But once again if i'm forced to shoot the 5 ball i'm not rolling it, i'm playing to win the game.

Billy I.
 
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wincardona

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wincardona said:
Bruce, in post #20 I clearly say that i'm banking the 5 ball over the 1 ball cut, but if I must shoot the 1 ball i'm playing to get more then just the 1 ball. If you choose to shoot the 1 ball, you can roll it if that's your style, well that's not my style and we all must play what we feel best suits our game. The 8 ball is a big ball in the path of the position for the 5 ball if you choose to play position for the 5 ball. I feel that if I choose to play the 1 ball cut I will stroke it enough to clear the 8 ball for position on the 5 ball. Any top player confronted with this situation will do the same. But at age 67 with my dimiinished offensive ability, i'm electing to bank the 5 ball. But once again if i'm forced to shoot the 1 ball i'm not rolling it, i'm playing to win the game.

Billy I.
In the position referenced playing the 5 ball and drawing back for position for the 1 ball isn't for everyone. I do understand that this type of a shot is risky for the norm, and I also understand why Bruce would prefer to roll the 5 ball opposed to stroking it and play position for the 1 ball. With that understood you should choose the shot that best suits your ability as a player. I set the shot up and played it out 10 times, and was successful 6 times. I never once had a problem with the 8 ball, when I failed with the shot it was by missing the 5 ball. I also feel that once I work myself into stroke I would pocket the 5 ball 70% of the time. For a top player this shot is a piece of cake,:D For me right now it's gambling with a little the best of it.:eek: So what's wrong with that?;)

Billy I.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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wincardona said:
In the position referenced playing the 5 ball and drawing back for position for the 1 ball isn't for everyone. I do understand that this type of a shot is risky for the norm, and I also understand why Bruce would prefer to roll the 5 ball opposed to stroking it and play position for the 1 ball. With that understood you should choose the shot that best suits your ability as a player. I set the shot up and played it out 10 times, and was successful 6 times. I never once had a problem with the 8 ball, when I failed with the shot it was by missing the 5 ball. I also feel that once I work myself into stroke I would pocket the 5 ball 70% of the time. For a top player this shot is a piece of cake,:D For me right now it's gambling with a little the best of it.:eek: So what's wrong with that?;)

Billy I.

Billy.....I don't even know where you're hitting the opposite rail - are you trying to hit the rail in between the 8 and 12, or between the 8 and 15?

- Gho$t

PS, If there was no 8 and 15 balls blocking the way :) then, I would also shoot the 5 like that.
 

SJDinPHX

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Billy.....I don't even know where you're hitting the opposite rail - are you trying to hit the rail in between the 8 and 12, or between the 8 and 15?

- Gho$t

PS, If there was no 8 and 15 balls blocking the way :) then, I would also shoot the 5 like that.
To me, this is one of the reasons I prefer 2 railing the 1 ball...Shape on the 1,..is very iffy, going for the 5...Say you miss the 5 (very likely) and hit the 8 or 15...You have almost surely given up control of the table...Whereas a good hit on the double bank...not a lot can go wrong...Trust me...I'm a nurse's aide...;)
 

wincardona

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Billy.....I don't even know where you're hitting the opposite rail - are you trying to hit the rail in between the 8 and 12, or between the 8 and 15?

- Gho$t

PS, If there was no 8 and 15 balls blocking the way :) then, I would also shoot the 5 like that.
The way I positioned the balls, and I tried to duplicate as close as possible to your layout, I had no problem if stroked well to go between the 8 and 15 balls. It just was natural for me to go between the two balls for position for the 1 ball. I have a Diamond table with fair pockets, but not too tight. If you're playing on a tight table then I would not shoot the shot like I suggested, I would definitely double bank the 1 ball, or roll the 5 ball if I was forced to shoot the 5.

If there were no balls on the other side rail to contend with, then I would use a center ball with a tip of left english and go back and forth for position with pocket speed, opposed to a harder speed shooting the same shot with draw.

Billy I.
 

Dudley

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I personally could see myself shooting either shot in this scenario. I think that cinching the 5 ball is a very high percentage shot while the two railer could come out very strong but you would have to hit it very well to apply pressure on your opponent.

So if you shoot the 2 railer and it doesn't end up in the jaws the cut maybe was a better option.

I personally would be satisfied to make the 5 then play off the 1 to the bottom rail.

Dudley

"Mr. Doright"

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Frank Almanza

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Playing the five you would probably only get that one ball because of the 12 and 8 being in the way for position on the one ball.

For that reason I would shoot the double bank on the one and if it goes then I have and easy shot on the five that would in turn give me a two railer on the 15 ball for the win.

If the one doesn't go and I hide it from him I'll still be in good position.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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SJDinPHX said:
To me, this is one of the reasons I prefer 2 railing the 1 ball...Shape on the 1,..is very iffy, going for the 5...Say you miss the 5 (very likely) and hit the 8 or 15...You have almost surely given up control of the table...

Frank Almanza said:
Playing the five you would probably only get that one ball because of the 12 and 8 being in the way for position on the one ball.

But, but, wait a minute - you guys gotta be wrong here/not know how to stroke the cueball correctly..:eek:..didn't you see 'the Doctors' posts? - he said that the 8, 12, and 15 aren't in the way at all - he just zips whitey right between them, easy as pie...;)...:D

- Gho$t

PS, Skin can do it too!...:p
 

Dudley

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One Pocket Ghost said:
But, but, wait a minute - you guys gotta be wrong here/not know how to stroke the cueball correctly..:eek:..didn't you see 'the Doctors' posts? - he said that the 8, 12, and 15 aren't in the way at all - he just zips whitey right between them, easy as pie...;)...:D

- Gho$t

PS, Skin can do it too!...:p

If there was one more ball in the open to play position for that would also be my selection, however---> Hitting it at a speed to get position through traffic doesn't seem worth it to me to make one more ball. If you happen to miss the 5 ball at the harder speed it would not stay near the pocket anymore possibly selling out a bank or even a cut shot for your opponent.

This is why I prefer to make one ball then leave my opponent tough to try and keep my advantage in the rack.

Dud
 

wincardona

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One Pocket Ghost said:
But, but, wait a minute - you guys gotta be wrong here/not know how to stroke the cueball correctly..:eek:..didn't you see 'the Doctors' posts? - he said that the 8, 12, and 15 aren't in the way at all - he just zips whitey right between them, easy as pie...;)...:D

- Gho$t

PS, Skin can do it too!...:p
Bruce, I said that you must choose the shot that best suits your game. And yes I can draw the cue ball back between the 8 and 15 balls with ease. Don't you believe the doctor? If not then you may be my next patient.:p

Trust me, i'm a doctor.

Billy I.
 

newfosgatesucks

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If he hits them, you can get a shot hitting first ball, or a bank hitting the second ball. That ball nearest the headstring, on a good day, is in play for me...

On a bad day i roll in the freebie with whatever speed I can to get in a position to rearrange the mess and leave him long.

It just takes a good day for me to shoot the aggressive shot here.

Now on a wet day with 4 inch pockets...I wouldnt do anything but take the shot as natural as it lays..

One Pocket Ghost said:
But, but, wait a minute - you guys gotta be wrong here/not know how to stroke the cueball correctly..:eek:..didn't you see 'the Doctors' posts? - he said that the 8, 12, and 15 aren't in the way at all - he just zips whitey right between them, easy as pie...;)...:D

- Gho$t

PS, Skin can do it too!...:p
 

wincardona

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Dudley said:
If there was one more ball in the open to play position for that would also be my selection, however---> Hitting it at a speed to get position through traffic doesn't seem worth it to me to make one more ball. If you happen to miss the 5 ball at the harder speed it would not stay near the pocket anymore possibly selling out a bank or even a cut shot for your opponent.

This is why I prefer to make one ball then leave my opponent tough to try and keep my advantage in the rack.

Dud
Bruce, I noticed that you try to twist things to prove your point. Where did I say that the cut on the 5 ball playing position for the 1 ball was right for everyone? I clearly stated in post#77 my opinion, but you seem to understand what you want, not what is said.:confused:

I'm posting to try to help people understand different perspectives, and to incorporate them into their game. Your agenda is to get people to agree with you, period.

Billy I.

Billy I.
 

Skin

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One Pocket Ghost said:
But, but, wait a minute - you guys gotta be wrong here/not know how to stroke the cueball correctly..:eek:..didn't you see 'the Doctors' posts? - he said that the 8, 12, and 15 aren't in the way at all - he just zips whitey right between them, easy as pie...;)...:D

- Gho$t

PS, Skin can do it too!...:p
Damn right! That is a kid's shot. The only risk on it is a) overstroking it or b) over thinking it.

It doesn't matter if you hit one of those balls on the opposite rail. At that speed you're going to wind up good on something to send towards your hole and keep him on defense...ahead 6-5. If you don't know you're going to make the 5, then try for Z on the 1 and the hide, which ain't no piece of cake even with true rails and good, clean balls.

"Just shoot the damn ball" Skin
 

One Pocket Ghost

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wincardona said:
Bruce, I noticed that you try to twist things to prove your point. Where did I say that the cut on the 5 ball playing position for the 1 ball was right for everyone? I clearly stated in post#77 my opinion, but you seem to understand what you want, not what is said.:confused:

Billy I.

Billy....Your lighter toned post #36 was much better - with the silly smiley face...:)...

Now then...You aren't reading what was actually said...Where did I say, that you said, your shot was for everyone? - I never said that at all..:rolleyes:...all I did was tease your post a little about that 2-rail position being easy for you to succeed at.


wincardona said:
I'm posting to try to help people understand different perspectives, and to incorporate them into their game. Your agenda is to get people to agree with you, period.
Billy I.


Nope that's not my agenda at all...in many of my shot choice posts (including the last three I posted up), I don't even state a favorite choice - just like in this thread - since I never even picked a favorite choice in this thread, how could I get/want anybody to agree with me...:rolleyes:...

Like you, my agenda is to present and discuss shots...but it's also to have fun joking around and needling people a little re. their shot choices...or disagreeing with their analysis if I see it differently - no matter who it is...:)

- Gho$t
 
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