Alex Pagulayan - Tony Chohan 2006 Derby City Classic

Jeff sparks

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I'd call it a zone...
When you're in it, you have the mo, the flo, the go, and the dough!
When you're not, you have no mo, no flo, no go, no dough, and you're gonna blow!

If you screw up.... A zone shift is inevitable... You're gonna get punished.:mad::mad::frus
 

1pwannabe

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I think you are referring to Momentum (with the capital M) whereas a lot of people mean it in the smaller sense of just the current game or current situation. The Momentum is the entire show, the big picture, confidence, adrenaline, desire for the big win. I think fear plays some part in that as well, I saw it from years of watching my two girls play soccer. When the other team scores, especially late in the game, it causes fear of losing in the opponent and their adrenaline kicks in and they hit a high gear until they score..then they slow back down again.

I'm most familiar with the use of the term "momentum" in football and basketball. What I think most people mean who use the term there is that the team they believe has it -- gained through a pattern of outstanding execution and/or good luck over the most recent set of plays -- against an otherwise equal opponent, will have an advantage equivalent to playing 5 degrees downhill against the opponent struggling 5 degrees uphill. A mystical force.

I wonder whether there's anything about this that relates to how a person might choose to call the flip of a coin after it had just landed heads three times in a row. I think some people would choose heads because they think something mystical makes it more likely, and some would choose tails because they believe something mystical makes tails "due." Others are confident that it's still 50-50. (Personally, I'd rather lag. :) )

I'm thinking that an in-depth study of individuals based upon which of the three views each of them has about the next flip might reveal several things common in other aspects of their personalities. IOW, one trait most often accompanied by particular others.

(If this leaves the horse in intensive care, you have my permission to pull the plug. :heh )
 

LSJohn

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When the other team scores, especially late in the game, it causes fear of losing in the opponent and their adrenaline kicks in and they hit a high gear until they score..then they slow back down again.
That sounds like the exact opposite of what people mean when they say a team has momentum in football or basketball. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that a team has just gained the momentum -- from an adrenaline kick or otherwise -- as a result of the other team scoring. I think the play-by-play announcers using it either believe it is a mystical force, believe we think it's a mystical force, or are just blathering because they are paid to make noise on the air.
 

1pwannabe

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That sounds like the exact opposite of what people mean when they say a team has momentum in football or basketball. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that a team has just gained the momentum -- from an adrenaline kick or otherwise -- as a result of the other team scoring. I think the play-by-play announcers using it either believe it is a mystical force, believe we think it's a mystical force, or are just blathering because they are paid to make noise on the air.
The mystical momentum is pure hindsight bias, I'm certain.
 

LSJohn

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The mystical momentum is pure hindsight bias, I'm certain.
I think we agree pretty closely.

I have heard many on-air sports commentators during live action to say, "Team X clearly has the momentum now," meaning, I'm sure, that Team X is more likely to do well over the course of the next several plays than Team Y." It is predictive.
 

usblues

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Leave the 8....

Leave the 8....

.......alone.Lag the CB into the red ball easy and leave it on the top rail.Spot the ball and he's looking at no shot and you have 2 balls on your side.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I think we agree pretty closely.

I have heard many on-air sports commentators during live action to say, "Team X clearly has the momentum now," meaning, I'm sure, that Team X is more likely to do well over the course of the next several plays than Team Y." It is predictive.
I think you'll notice real momentum shifts in team games rather than in individual sports. A team can up it's performance after a few players drain a few long jumpers and then they start playing better defense also. A football team often does the same thing when a QB completes a few passes in a row. Suddenly all of the receivers catch everything thrown to them and then the defense perks up also because they feel they have a chance now. Same type thing in the NHL.

I don't see it in tennis or in pocket billiards and of course it doesn't exist in chess which bears no relation to One-Pocket except that it's a thinking man's game.

Team games can pick up momentum because players are feeding off each other, in pool or chess that cannot happen.

Dennis
 

Jeff sparks

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I think you'll notice real momentum shifts in team games rather than in individual sports. A team can up it's performance after a few players drain a few long jumpers and then they start playing better defense also. A football team often does the same thing when a QB completes a few passes in a row. Suddenly all of the receivers catch everything thrown to them and then the defense perks up also because they feel they have a chance now. Same type thing in the NHL.

I don't see it in tennis or in pocket billiards and of course it doesn't exist in chess which bears no relation to One-Pocket except that it's a thinking man's game.

Team games can pick up momentum because players are feeding off each other, in pool or chess that cannot happen.

Dennis
While I agree with your analysis of momentum in team sports and how it generally gets started, I don't wholeheartedly agree that momentum is restricted to just team sports.

Many times in pool matches the control shifts, ( or momentum if you like ) usually because of something your opponent did or didn't do, like show weakness, or dog a ball, or show a vulnerability you weren't aware of. This brings new life to the other player, or shifts control of the match, or gives the other player the needed momentum to take control of the game. I've seen it and experienced it many times both seizing and giving up the momentum, or control of the game. Jmo. :)
 

LSJohn

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Dennis, Jeff, momentum

Dennis, Jeff, momentum

The concept of momentum was developed around the 6th Century AD during attempts to understand and explain physics. It is used to describe a force that an object possesses as a result of its mass and forward movement.

Seeing multiple disparate opinions here about its meaning in sports alerts me that what I thought was the common understanding -- that it was a mystical force which would work in the near future to advantage -- is not so common after all.

I use it in the classical sense, additional force that something possesses as a result of moving forward that it would not have standing still -- neither a suggestion, an advantage, initiative nor recent experience which induces confidence or an adrenaline rush.... actual force.

I also don't buy "feeding off each other" as something that can be predicted, or even reasonably expected. If it can't be reliably expected to happen, IMO, it is reduced to an after-the-fact attempt to explain an unusual phenomenon. Do two players both play unusually well more often when they are playing together than when the same two are playing in different groups? If we control for the fact that we are only likely to notice when they are playing together, and the ones we notice most are those near the top of the leader board -- indicating they have both already been playing well in previous rounds -- I don't think so.

Your mileage may vary. ;)
 

Tom Wirth

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The concept of momentum was developed around the 6th Century AD during attempts to understand and explain physics. It is used to describe a force that an object possesses as a result of its mass and forward movement.
Hey John, I do understand how you define the word momentum as a phenomenon of physics as it should be used to describe the forward movement of objects in relation to their mass. I wonder if this is more or less an exercise in semantics.

I was using the word, and I think others too are using the word, substituting the variables "object", "mass", and "forward movement" and replacing these words with "player", "positional advantage", and, from this positional advantage, forcing an opponent to make decisions that enable this player to "build on that advantage".

I say "force" because this player holds a tactical position which leaves very limited viable options for his opponent, all of which allow for more complicated difficulties to follow, hence, momentum seems to me to be the most accurate word to describe this position. I see nothing mystical in that.

Tom
 

cincy_kid

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Billy as usual you are confused..I wasn't replying to your option. I was replying to Toms version of making the hanging ball and bringing the cue ball 3 rails back down table by Chohans pocket which Cincy agreed with. If I can see the 8 I can bank it cross side into the side pocket and also try to roll down and pocket the hanging ball. Now there are 2 maybe 3 balls on the spot...

P.S. as far as your version of making the hanging ball... WEAK AS SKIM MILK
I may be reading this post wrong but I never agreed with Tom's shot selection. What I thought I said is that the way learned coming up was that if you have the lead 6/4, you don't want to put 2 balls in play. In fact you want to keep them all out of play so that your opponent can only get 1 at a time (Kind of like what Jeff said in post #38).

However, since Dr. Bill and Tom both are putting 2 balls in play here - they have much more experience than I do so maybe I need to rethink my strategy and get 2 balls in play too.

So I wasn't agreeing with Tom's actual shot selection but rather being open to changing my strategy when I am leading 6-4

(Not saying Tom's selection was a bad one - just that I was not agreeing with it in my post earlier)

Confused? I may be! :confused:
 

Tom Wirth

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However, since Dr. Bill and Tom both are putting 2 balls in play here - they have much more experience than I do so maybe I need to rethink my strategy and get 2 balls in play too.

So I wasn't agreeing with Tom's actual shot selection but rather being open to changing my strategy when I am leading 6-4

(Not saying Tom's selection was a bad one - just that I was not agreeing with it in my post earlier)

Confused? I may be! :confused:
Hey Cincy, Here is the thing the way I see it. There are a number of balls left on the table. Two are clustered together, two more are hung in upper corner pockets, and one more is sitting free and in an advantageous position and I need two to win. The down side to this situation is that there is no shot which can score the free ball.

So, do I push the only free ball out of play, or do I free up one of the two hanging balls. Do I break up the cluster? Make one of the hanging balls and I have two balls in play. Break up the cluster and I have three balls in play, albeit their position may favor me. I believe the proper play is not to surrender the position of the free ball but find an workable alternative.

I need two balls not just one, so instead of thinking defensively and worrying about what my opponent can do to me, I prefer to think offensively and force my opponent to worry about leaving me a good shot. With my positional advantage, I hold the initiative, and I'm not giving it up easily.

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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The concept of momentum was developed around the 6th Century AD during attempts to understand and explain physics. It is used to describe a force that an object possesses as a result of its mass and forward movement.

Seeing multiple disparate opinions here about its meaning in sports alerts me that what I thought was the common understanding -- that it was a mystical force which would work in the near future to advantage -- is not so common after all.

I use it in the classical sense, additional force that something possesses as a result of moving forward that it would not have standing still Good ole Isaac Newton, I used to call him Ike:).-- neither a suggestion, an advantage, initiative nor recent experience which induces confidence or an adrenaline rush.... actual force. This may explain why everytime I walk down the lane and rest my ball against the headpin and stand back and wait...nothing f@#king happens:p.

I also don't buy "feeding off each other" as something that can be predicted, or even reasonably expected.I never said it could be predicted or reasonably expected, only that it happens. If it can't be reliably expected to happen, IMO, it is reduced to an after-the-fact attempt to explain an unusual phenomenonAbsolutely.. Do two players both play unusually well more often when they are playing together than when the same two are playing in different groups? If we control for the fact that we are only likely to notice when they are playing together, and the ones we notice most are those near the top of the leader board -- indicating they have both already been playing well in previous rounds -- I don't think so.

Your mileage may vary. ;)
John,

Of course you can only see momentum after it happens, before it happens it hadn't happened yet for you to see:D

Dennis
 

LSJohn

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I never said it could be predicted or reasonably expected, only that it happens.
What happens is two guys playing together both play well. We can't say why (according to me) because IMO if one of them had been one group back or forward it would not have changed the likelihood of both playing well. Actually, I admit that it might. I just don't think the anecdotal evidence we think we see for it is strong enough to draw that conclusion. I know we can't bet even money that if one plays unusually well the other will also. Coincidence can explain it as well as "feeding" when it happens (in my most humble dead certainty.) :D
Of course you can only see momentum after it happens, before it happens it hadn't happened yet for you to see:D
Oh, kinda like that date I picked up on Bourbon Street... Not knowin' what I was dealin' with until I got down to "the bidness"? ;)
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Oh, kinda like that date I picked up on Bourbon Street... Not knowin' what I was dealin' with until I got down to "the bidness"? ;)
I once worked with a guy who frequented the "businesswomen" in S.W. Detroit. He picked up a "date" one night and after it got down to "bidness" he found out that she was not a she. He told his story and then found out (not from me) that several others also knew the young "lady":D.

The moral of the story is "do not feel alone":p.

RBL
 

cincy_kid

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Hey Cincy, Here is the thing the way I see it. There are a number of balls left on the table. Two are clustered together, two more are hung in upper corner pockets, and one more is sitting free and in an advantageous position and I need two to win. The down side to this situation is that there is no shot which can score the free ball.

So, do I push the only free ball out of play, or do I free up one of the two hanging balls. Do I break up the cluster? Make one of the hanging balls and I have two balls in play. Break up the cluster and I have three balls in play, albeit their position may favor me. I believe the proper play is not to surrender the position of the free ball but find an workable alternative.

I need two balls not just one, so instead of thinking defensively and worrying about what my opponent can do to me, I prefer to think offensively and force my opponent to worry about leaving me a good shot. With my positional advantage, I hold the initiative, and I'm not giving it up easily.

Tom
Yea, its a good point Tom and why I said earlier maybe I need to rethink my strategy here. :)

I think overall my 1p game could be more offensive because in real life (and in vp4) i dont run a lot of balls. I get a couple and duck...wait for opponent mistake, get 1 or 2 and duck, etc...

I think a lot of that comes from confidence though and not playing as often as I would like. If I were able to play every day maybe I would shoot those cross corners with enough speed to come up the table and get position instead of rolling it pocket speed and hiding behind the stack.
 
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