Alex Pagulayan - Tony Chohan 2006 Derby City Classic

1pwannabe

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Alright,
If you roll on the 1/stripe,
I'm pocketing the stripe in the corner and bringing the CB back down table near my corner pocket. Four balls in play now, your shot.
The 5 isn't hanging in the pocket, you are going to have to back cut it such that the cue ball will go towards the 8 afterward. I would welcome that shot, you won't have good cue ball control and you're likely going to leave me a straightback on the 5 after it spots up.
 

Jeff sparks

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The 5 isn't hanging in the pocket, you are going to have to back cut it such that the cue ball will go towards the 8 afterward. I would welcome that shot, you won't have good cue ball control and you're likely going to leave me a straightback on the 5 after it spots up.
I'm shooting the stripe in the corner into the pocket, not the 5 ball...
Nothing's getting past that 8 ball on a bank.
 

1pwannabe

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I'm shooting the stripe in the corner into the pocket, not the 5 ball...
Nothing's getting past that 8 ball on a bank.
Sorry, you said the stripe before, got it.

There is a chance you won't see the stripe, if I bump that 10 (I think it's the 10) up at all and lay towards the other ball, you will only have the 5 ball and 8 ball to realistically shoot at. If I do leave you a line to that stripe, I agree it will be easy to make and get to the bottom rail, but from there it would depend on where on the bottom rail you get to on what to do next. I don't see losing the stronger position however.

Playing ball for ball here, with Alex being ahead, I do agree that he'll win 90% of the time with your choice of simply moving the 8 and leaving Tony nothing aggressive to shoot at. By this time in the match Tony was already rattled a bit by Alex's propensity to get out when given any opportunity.
 

Tom Wirth

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Score 6/4 2 balls are completely out of play, 2 are tied up where only a two railer will go, and the 8 is loose. If it's me leading 6/4, I'm not really thinking about putting more balls in play, I'm wanting them to stay out of play. I like the fact that it's nearly impossible for my opponent to score more than one ball at a time.

Point being, I don't need to run two and out, all I need is one ball at a time and exercise some patience, I'm gonna let him break em loose one at a time, and guard against leaving me a shot. If someone has an explanation of why I should want more balls loose, I'd like to hear the logic behind it.

I'm still rolling the 8 up by the stripe and taking my chances from there.
Jeff, this is a very good question and I think I have a good but simplified answer for you and others who, in my opinion, have a misconception of how to play the game in late innings. So many times, and in the past I've been guilty of this myself where with a considerable lead stopped "moving". It is important to continue to play aggressively when you hold position on your opponent. ( In this case, the eight ball.) Should you surrender this advantage your opponent is sure to use your docile attitude to put you in continuous trouble. This is one such situation.

The eight is positioned to your advantage and the idea should be to maintain its position and prevent your opponent from safely dislodging it. The shot I selected has the potential to do just that and hide the eight behind the ball being spotted. If successful your opponent will now have to defend against two ball and have to focus his attention on the one he can access. The ball on the spot. This is all about maintaining momentum. Should he clear the spotted ball and play safe, you then strive to move that ball back into a position where if he looks to move the eight he risks surrendering a shot, maybe a bank on the second loose ball. This is how you trap in late, up table games.

Constantly seek to force predictable, defensive responses. Without that second ball in play you are at best in neutral and at risk of having your opponent turning this momentum in his favor. Can this strategy backfire? Sure it can, but if you are a solid player, the percentages are working in your favor verses any other strategy when playing other strong players.

Tom
 

onepockethacker

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When you cut the 1 ball into the 10 ball and bring the cue ball back down table you will now have 3 makeable balls all on YOUR side of the table.. the odds of leaving a makeable 2 rail bank on the 8 ball once the 1 and 10 are opened and on your side are miniscule AT BEST. So whats your opponent going to now do to not leave you a good shot? He cannot play off of either hanging ball without leaving you a shot so thats out.. if he moves the 8 ball where is he going to put it and the cue ball? the guys wanting to make the hanging ball that favors you are insane.. that 5 ball hanging there blocks any potential scratches later in the game for you on any cross corner banks. anyone who thinks that they are going to have the luxury of just playing 1 ball one pocket the rest of the game are crazy.. heres news for you guys.. the 1 and 10 are getting opened up and the 2 hanging balls are being made at some point in this game.. you should take the initiative now and open the 1 and 10 up to your side instead of waiting for him to open them up to his side later in the game.. keep the pressure on.... do you guys really believe you are going to be able to play the rest of the game with only the 5 and 8 in play? lol

P.S. anyway this is WWYD so everyone can play this out anyway they like. Im confident in how my decision will unfold.. as for the rest of you...GOOD LUCK
 
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LSJohn

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risk of having your opponent turning this momentum in his favor.
Tom
Ah, this raises an issue I have a different opinion about than most other people, and it applies in all sports. It seems to me that a lot of people see "momentum" as some kind of mystical force that operates to the holder's advantage (that may not be quite what you mean, Tom.) If it were, I think we'd see it "turned" far less often.

If both opponents believe in that mystical force, it could affect the attitudes and decision-making of each; it could increase "dog" in one and/or over-confidence in the other, but in that case it exists as a force only in the minds of the contenders.

Terry Bradshaw completed his thesis (either Master's or PHD, don't remember) at Louisiana Tech "proving" that "scoring leads to scoring" in football. Among other things, he demonstrated that in a close, low-scoring game, a score by one team increased the likelihood of scoring by the other. If there's validity to this, something the opposite of momentum would be at play.

Just my $.02..... no, make that $.04 for how strongly I think it. :)
 

LSJohn

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that 5 ball hanging there blocks any potential scratches later in the game for you on any cross corner banks.
Yeah, that ball looks really nice sitting there when you're crossing a cross-corner from uptable, and besides, Dr Bill pointed out to me that leaving a ball there has a good chance to give you a convenient emergency safety if you need it later. (In theory, the other hanging ball looks like a better choice to me, if whitey can be put someplace you like, but not available here.)

you should take the initiative now and open the 1 and 10 up to your side
...while the 8 is there, making it hard for him to safely play a straightback on either of them from down table.

I still like my shot, but it risks a scratch, and once again :frus :frus :frus I have to go with Hacker's reasoning. :D

One more thought that goes along with Jeff's thinking: Two balls in play makes the table harder to defend for both players; Up 6-4, defense seems more valuable to me than it is to my opponent.
 
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Tom Wirth

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Ah, this raises an issue I have a different opinion about than most other people, and it applies in all sports. It seems to me that a lot of people see "momentum" as some kind of mystical force that operates to the holder's advantage (that may not be quite what you mean, Tom.) If it were, I think we'd see it "turned" far less often.

If both opponents believe in that mystical force, it could affect the attitudes and decision-making of each; it could increase "dog" in one and/or over-confidence in the other, but in that case it exists as a force only in the minds of the contenders.

Terry Bradshaw completed his thesis (either Master's or PHD, don't remember) at Louisiana Tech "proving" that "scoring leads to scoring" in football. Among other things, he demonstrated that in a close, low-scoring game, a score by one team increased the likelihood of scoring by the other. If there's validity to this, something the opposite of momentum would be at play.

Just my $.02..... no, make that $.04 for how strongly I think it. :)
Interesting perspective, John. I don't see anything mystical in momentum. I see it as a reality. In the game of Chess, maintaining momentum is the what it's all about, especially during the opening. White always makes the first move. His objective to to control one or more of the squares in the center of the board. Black now counters White with a similar objective, in effect neutralizing white's move. The game progresses in this fashion until one player fails to maintain the pace. At this stage the player with the minor positional lead seeks to increase his advantage and exploit the other's positional weakness.

One Pocket works the same way. The only difference is that in our game the player must not only make sound choices but he must exhibit an ability to execute shots with precision. To willingly surrender a positional advantage is similar to following an opponent's bad shot with one of your own.

One considerable difference between football and One Pocket is the momentum shifts to the opposing team once a score is achieved. They get the ball!

Tom
 

baby huey

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Jeff gets the gold star, your ahead 6/4 and unless forced to, never put balls in play by pocketing them. Why give your opponent an opportunity to then pocket another ball behind your shot and possibly snookering you or some other trap. You are in the drivers seat and he knows it. Just wait and bank out for the win.
 

Mkbtank

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Alex Pagulayan - Tony Chohan 2006 Derby City Classic

that 5 ball hanging there blocks any potential scratches later in the game for you on any cross corner banks.


THAT gem right there was worth the price of admission. It makes such good sense, and yet I've never thought about it before. I will be keeping that one.👍

Thanks Rob.
 

LSJohn

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In the game of Chess, maintaining momentum is the what it's all about, especially during the opening. White always makes the first move. His objective to to control one or more of the squares in the center of the board. Black now counters White with a similar objective, in effect neutralizing white's move. The game progresses in this fashion until one player fails to maintain the pace.

You're calling "momentum" what I would merely call first opportunity. Most people see it as having more value than that.

One considerable difference between football and One Pocket is the momentum shifts to the opposing team once a score is achieved. They get the ball!
Again, you're only talking about first opportunity. I think most people would say that the team that just scored has the momentum. The word actually refers to the force an object with mass possesses as a result of moving forward. It takes an object with momentum or inertia greater to stop it.

One considerable difference between football and One Pocket is the momentum shifts to the opposing team once a score is achieved. They get the ball!
It is a statistical reality that the opposing team gets the ball more often when a team does NOT score. When your opponent's inning ends, you have the table, but if it is handed to you down 7 to -1, few would say the momentum has just shifted to you.

I don't think this is really very important in the real world, but is of interest to me. My son and I watch football together quite a lot, and we always laugh when the announcers observe that the "momentum" has shifted so many times. They don't mean that it has shifted every time the ball changes hands, they mean that one team or the other has just done two or more favorable things in a row following the other team having done so previously.

I don't mean to be argumentative, just fleshing out what I meant previously in light of your response.
 

LSJohn

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Jeff gets the gold star, your ahead 6/4 and unless forced to, never put balls in play by pocketing them. Why give your opponent an opportunity to then pocket another ball behind your shot and possibly snookering you or some other trap. You are in the drivers seat and he knows it. Just wait and bank out for the win.
But wouldn't you agree that you'd rather the 1-10 got opened up before he is able to remove the 8 ball from your zone instead of letting him open them later either safely or threateningly?
 

Tom Wirth

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John, Okay, let's look at it your way. First opportunity. First opportunity to do damage to your opponent's position and create havoc. I see the creation of traps the way bricklayers build walls, one brick at a time. Call it what you like, I would call it "momentum".

There may not be a first strike opportunity at the moment, but the position of the balls may allow you to improve your hold on your opponent by continually positioning balls into advantageous areas of the table. You do this until your opponent reaches the breaking point and sells out something with true scoring potential. Whether it be early in a game or late, traps can and should be your goal, regardless of score.

I don't like giving up any advantage regardless of the score. I think there is too much emphases on shifting the thinking and becoming defensively minded when it was an offensive mindset that got you the lead to begin with. Why change strategy when you have the makings of another trap? Sure, there is more to lose the closer you are to winning, and it is important to protect the lead you have acquired, but too often that thinking goes way too far and players stop shooting at their hole or stop trying to create errors from their opponents. You might be waiting a long time for that easy shot when faced with higher level players.

I'm not saying this strategy is for all players, but it seems right for me. At least when I feel good about my game.

Tom
 

Cowboy Dennis

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You're calling "momentum" what I would merely call first opportunity. Most people see it as having more value than that.
Don't tell anyone John but there's no Easter Bunny either and there's no such thing as luck:D.
 

LSJohn

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John, Okay, let's look at it your way. First opportunity. First opportunity to do damage to your opponent's position and create havoc. I see the creation of traps the way bricklayers build walls, one brick at a time. Call it what you like, I would call it "momentum".

There may not be a first strike opportunity at the moment, but the position of the balls may allow you to improve your hold on your opponent by continually positioning balls into advantageous areas of the table. You do this until your opponent reaches the breaking point and sells out something with true scoring potential. Whether it be early in a game or late, traps can and should be your goal, regardless of score.

I don't like giving up any advantage regardless of the score. I think there is too much emphases on shifting the thinking and becoming defensively minded when it was an offensive mindset that got you the lead to begin with. Why change strategy when you have the makings of another trap? Sure, there is more to lose the closer you are to winning, and it is important to protect the lead you have acquired, but too often that thinking goes way too far and players stop shooting at their hole or stop trying to create errors from their opponents. You might be waiting a long time for that easy shot when faced with higher level players.

I'm not saying this strategy is for all players, but it seems right for me. At least when I feel good about my game.

Tom
What you're talking about is as you are saying it is. I just don't call it momentum, and IMO most other people are thinking something different when they hear the word. IOW, we agree about all this except one word. Pretty good percentage, right? :heh
 

LSJohn

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Don't tell anyone John but there's no Easter Bunny either and there's no such thing as luck:D.
Oh, yeah there's luck. We recognize it after we see it. We can't predict it or influence it, but it definitely exists. Easter Bunny, not so much. ;)
 

1pwannabe

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I think this is where chess terminology could help clarify 1P concepts, they are extremely similar if not exact.

In chess when you have the "first move" in any situation, it's termed the initiative. Chess Initiative

This would be things like the opening break, or when you make a strong move that turns everything around and forces your opponent to try and defend. This is what a lot of people refer to as "momentum".

The other key term used is tempo, which in 1P is usually referred to as "a move". So if I make a move in chess that both attacks an opponents piece AND defends my king, that would be a 2 tempo move. Against strong players it's key to find moves with more than 1 tempo, just like in 1P. In 1P the equivalent would be taking a ball out of their hole, while getting whitey safe and moving the threat ball to my side. Chess Tempo

Other terms that have some similarity would be:

Gambit - giving up something to get the ultimate position or win (trap)

Forced Move - forcing your opponent to give up his turn to deal with your move

Equalize - pretty obvious

Zwischenzug (in-between move) - responding to a threat by posing an even bigger threat to the opponent, forcing him to respond to the threat first (critical at times in 1P)

Patzer - sucker in pool

Opening, Middle Game, Endgame - identical to 1P in concept
 

LSJohn

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when you make a strong move that turns everything around and forces your opponent to try and defend. This is what a lot of people refer to as "momentum".
I'm most familiar with the use of the term "momentum" in football and basketball. What I think most people mean who use the term there is that the team they believe has it -- gained through a pattern of outstanding execution and/or good luck over the most recent set of plays -- against an otherwise equal opponent, will have an advantage equivalent to playing 5 degrees downhill against the opponent struggling 5 degrees uphill. A mystical force.

I wonder whether there's anything about this that relates to how a person might choose to call the flip of a coin after it had just landed heads three times in a row. I think some people would choose heads because they think something mystical makes it more likely, and some would choose tails because they believe something mystical makes tails "due." Others are confident that it's still 50-50. (Personally, I'd rather lag. :) )

I'm thinking that an in-depth study of individuals based upon which of the three views each of them has about the next flip might reveal several things common in other aspects of their personalities. IOW, one trait most often accompanied by particular others.

(If this leaves the horse in intensive care, you have my permission to pull the plug. :heh )
 

Tylerbob

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I like Tom's shot because it is not high difficulty and has very little down side, with a possible upside block of the 8 ball with the spotted five. I spite of those factors, I never would have recognized it as an option. So much to learn, so little time. . . .
 
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