A Funny Thing Happened...

Cary

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I guess my faculties are too limited to discern the ethical difference between not calling a foul on yourself and instead requiring that your opponent both see it and call it versus failing to announce that a called ball didn't go as called and instead requiring that your opponent both see it and call it.

I must be missing something.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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You are correct, he did make an attempt to cheat. It was foolish and should never have happened. Agreed.

You seem to want to label the kid as a thief and act as if he should be blacklisted, let's tar and feather the varmint while we are at it. I am in no way saying he was right, I just find it hard to believe that you have lived your life free of indiscretion. If that is the case, there will surely be a church with your name on the door opening soon.

I have had an error or two in judgment in my time but those situations helped me, they do not define me. I have never heard of anything like this about him in the past and I would be surprised if I do in the future. If this happens again then I will be the first in line to say you were correct in your assessment of his character, but to ostracize him for one moment of stupidity is a little far-fetched IMO.

John 8:7
K Town,

You are starting to annoy me. He did not "make an attempt to cheat", he did cheat. You still can't say it, because if you admit that he did cheat then you have to admit that he's a cheater and you can't or won't do that.

It was not "foolish", it was dishonest.

He's not a "kid", he's a man.

He is a "thief", he stole a ball and tried to steal the game. That's 2 "thieving" incidents.

We are discussing the incident in the Morra vs. SVB match, we aren't discussing my possible past indiscretions or yours either. Stay on topic.

You wouldn't have "heard" of his cheating and believed it in the past anyway, you cannot even accept it now that he did it.

This was not "one moment of stupidity", he didn't accidently drive the wrong way down a one-way street. He thought about it, heard the audience applauding (thinking he called it), weighed his chances, decided to take his chances, knew he was cheating, thought he wouldn't get caught, did get caught, fessed up ONLY when confronted by Morra & the referee. These are many more than "one moment of stupidity".

P.S. Invoking church, bible verses, and such leads me to say one final thing to you: religious jerks like you can kiss my ass. You be the one he cheated and I'll bet you change your tune, you'd be on this site crying like Roy from Norway. You've probably never come close to playing a big-money match in a tough game against a good player, if you had then you wouldn't be defending that good player when he cheats. You're just a computer-cowboy-player (like the other idiot chiming in with his stupidity) and your opinion ain't worth shit.

CD
 
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Cary

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I agree.

Have you ever bet high in a tough game against a very good player? You can learn things like that that you can't learn in any other way.

Dennis Twain
No, I've never been good enough to play a very good pool player. However I did once bet everything I had except the clothes I had on against a mediocre nine ball player (I was already barefoot & had lost my shoes in a fire). He took my money but left my clothes. I once (long, long ago in my misspent youth) bet five hundred 1960's dollars on myself in a bare knuckles, no rules street fight against a guy that was 5" taller than me and out weighed me by at least 100 pounds ( I won that one & have been bragging about it ever since). For several months in the mid '70s I paid the rent & bought groceries for my family by playing in a daily pot limit poker game. There were some pretty good players in that one. Good enough that I once had every dime I owned in the game and borrowed twenty to stay in. I ended the day $200 to the good but it was pretty stressful for a while. In 1968, when I was earning a little less than $700/month I bet (roughly) $3k on four queens in a jacks or better trips to win poker game (and lost**). I think $3k was pretty high back then. Do any of those count? I know they're not much but they were all memorable to me and I learned from each of them. These days I value the money I've earned over the last 40 years too much to gamble very high. Losing it gives me a throbbing headache, a fact I discovered playing blackjack about 12 years ago. What the hell, everybody gets old if they live long enough and I have, a fact which has astounded no one more than me.

**That one taught me that it is indeed possible to hold ace king and draw three more aces (I was dealing, which really made it hurt).

Are ethics a variable that change with the stakes and the level of play?
 
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John Brumback

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No, I've never been good enough to play a very good pool player. However I did once bet everything I had except the clothes I had on against a mediocre nine ball player (I was already barefoot & had lost my shoes in a fire). He took my money but left my clothes. I once (long, long ago in my misspent youth) bet five hundred 1960's dollars on myself in a bare knuckles, no rules street fight against a guy that was 5" taller than me and out weighed me by at least 100 pounds ( I won that one & have been bragging about it ever since). For several months in the mid '70s I paid the rent & bought groceries for my family by playing in a daily pot limit poker game. There were some pretty good players in that one. Good enough that I once had every dime I owned in the game and borrowed twenty to stay in. I ended the day $200 to the good but it was pretty stressful for a while. In 1968, when I was earning a little less than $700/month I bet (roughly) $3k on four queens in a jacks or better trips to win poker game (and lost**). I think $3k was pretty high back then. Do any of those count? I know they're not much but they were all memorable to me and I learned from each of them. These days I value the money I've earned over the last 40 years too much to gamble very high. Losing it gives me a throbbing headache, a fact I discovered playing blackjack about 12 years ago. What the hell, everybody gets old if they live long enough and I have, a fact which has astounded no one more than me.

**That one taught me that it is indeed possible to hold ace king and draw three more aces (I was dealing, which really made it hurt).

Are ethics a variable that change with the stakes and the level of play?
Not really but yes it depends on who your playing with.I've been burnt by so many "high Profile pros" that I guess they have left.. how should I put it nicely..
a bad taste in my mouth.Hope you can somewhat understand where I'm coming from.Nothing personal.And another thing,since we don't have reffs very often.I would pay to have a reff watch everyone of my matches to tell ya the truth. It's best to pay real close attention to what's going on at the table at the same time you should be in your chair watching and paying close attention.Anyway,that's the way I look at it.It's a tough world out there in the big tournys well small tournys too.Now I'm not talking about playing with your uncle joe or some kinfolk or something like that,I would cut them a little break,lol
I'm talking about playing against some struggling pool players trying to make a dime to get home on.I would think that explains it pretty good.Sorry for all the rambling on.John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Are ethics a variable that change with the stakes and the level of play?
Cary,

I was just trying to determine if you did gamble, that's all. If you haven't been in the spots we are discussing then you don't know firsthand how you would feel or what you would do. You have obviously gambled in the past and can speak authoritatively about it. I just didn't feel like being jerked around by someone who's never done it, that's all.

To answer your question: My ethics don't change for anyone or anything. I don't cheat in a poolroom or in life and I've got no use for people who do. I fail to see why you bring up the "calling a foul on yourself" situation and compare it to what SVB did. There's another thread for that topic.

Let me be clear: If you are playing in an unrefereed match and the rules (tourney) state that the player in the chair is to call fouls on his opponent then it is not a violation of the rules, technically or ethically, to not call a foul on yourself. You are playing within those rules and it's disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

If you are in a refereed match then it's the referee's duty to call fouls on the shooter. In the SVB vs. Morra match the referee was taken in by the audience applause & SVB acting like he had won and unless I'm remembering wrong he dumped the balls on the table for Shane to rack. It was Morra who called the situation into question, it was the ref's job but he failed and Morra did his job, as he should.

If you are gambling then it's your opponent's duty to call fouls on you, it's that simple to me.

The reason for my asking the ???'s I asked is this, as I've said: if a person hasn't been in these type situations, whether it's "calling a foul on yourself", having a cheater for an opponent, pushing and holding the cueball to freeze it to a corner-pocket jaw, or many other things that can come up in a pool game then all they are doing by arguing about it is wasting my time. If it's only going to be an "online-intellectual excercise" then what's the point?

When two players outline the rules they will play by and then both play within those rules, nobody is doing anything wrong, ethically or any other way. I'm a little tired of you suggesting otherwise. I play within the agreed rules and have never cheated anyone in a poolroom. My standards are high when it comes to that, I will not cheat to win money. I play pool for money, not for the money.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Not really but yes it depends on who your playing with.I've been burnt by so many "high Profile pros" that I guess they have left.. how should I put it nicely..
a bad taste in my mouth.Hope you can somewhat understand where I'm coming from.Nothing personal.And another thing,since we don't have reffs very often.I would pay to have a reff watch everyone of my matches to tell ya the truth. It's best to pay real close attention to what's going on at the table at the same time you should be in your chair watching and paying close attention.Anyway,that's the way I look at it.It's a tough world out there in the big tournys well small tournys too.Now I'm not talking about playing with your uncle joe or some kinfolk or something like that,I would cut them a little break,lol
I'm talking about playing against some struggling pool players trying to make a dime to get home on.I would think that explains it pretty good.Sorry for all the rambling on.John B.
John,

What is your opinion on what SVB did? Are you aware of it? Have you ever had anyone do that in a tourney?

Dennis
 

Cary

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Not really but yes it depends on who your playing with.I've been burnt by so many "high Profile pros" that I guess they have left.. how should I put it nicely..
a bad taste in my mouth.Hope you can somewhat understand where I'm coming from.Nothing personal.And another thing,since we don't have reffs very often.I would pay to have a reff watch everyone of my matches to tell ya the truth. It's best to pay real close attention to what's going on at the table at the same time you should be in your chair watching and paying close attention.Anyway,that's the way I look at it.It's a tough world out there in the big tournys well small tournys too.Now I'm not talking about playing with your uncle joe or some kinfolk or something like that,I would cut them a little break,lol
I'm talking about playing against some struggling pool players trying to make a dime to get home on.I would think that explains it pretty good.Sorry for all the rambling on.John B.
Actually John I have an understanding and appreciation for the challenges you and all serious players face. Although I don't really know you other than from this forum, I would trust you to invariably act in an honest and honorable manner (but I'd still cut the cards 'cause I always do. Daddy said to.).

All I've questioned is if it is OK and expected to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed foul, why isn't it also OK to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed illegally pocketed ball? From a purely ethical standpoint the situations are identical, albiet there might be serious practical and financial differences.

Or not. It all depends. Maybe.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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All I've questioned is if it is OK and expected to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed foul, why isn't it also OK to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed illegally pocketed ball? From a purely ethical standpoint the situations are identical, albiet there might be serious practical and financial differences.

Or not. It all depends. Maybe.
Cary,

SVB was playing by rules that say you must pocket the ball in the called pocket & in the manner (# of rails etc.) that you call. He (apparently) called it 4-rails and tried to take credit for it going 2-rails. That is a violation of the rules he was playing by.

As I wrote in my previous post, the situations are miles apart ethically or any other way.

Dennis
 

Cary

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Cary,

SVB was playing by rules that say you must pocket the ball in the called pocket & in the manner (# of rails etc.) that you call. He (apparently) called it 4-rails and tried to take credit for it going 2-rails. That is a violation of the rules he was playing by.

As I wrote in my previous post, the situations are miles apart ethically or any other way.

Dennis
Yes dear. :)
 

Jimmy B

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No, I've never been good enough to play a very good pool player. However I did once bet everything I had except the clothes I had on against a mediocre nine ball player (I was already barefoot & had lost my shoes in a fire). He took my money but left my clothes. I once (long, long ago in my misspent youth) bet five hundred 1960's dollars on myself in a bare knuckles, no rules street fight against a guy that was 5" taller than me and out weighed me by at least 100 pounds ( I won that one & have been bragging about it ever since). For several months in the mid '70s I paid the rent & bought groceries for my family by playing in a daily pot limit poker game. There were some pretty good players in that one. Good enough that I once had every dime I owned in the game and borrowed twenty to stay in. I ended the day $200 to the good but it was pretty stressful for a while. In 1968, when I was earning a little less than $700/month I bet (roughly) $3k on four queens in a jacks or better trips to win poker game (and lost**). I think $3k was pretty high back then. Do any of those count? I know they're not much but they were all memorable to me and I learned from each of them. These days I value the money I've earned over the last 40 years too much to gamble very high. Losing it gives me a throbbing headache, a fact I discovered playing blackjack about 12 years ago. What the hell, everybody gets old if they live long enough and I have, a fact which has astounded no one more than me.

**That one taught me that it is indeed possible to hold ace king and draw three more aces (I was dealing, which really made it hurt).

Are ethics a variable that change with the stakes and the level of play?


Ouch. I think you got cold decked with the four queens. They usually want the victim to deal. The cooler came in on the cut I think. Were you distracted or asked a question as he was cutting the cards??? Have you ever told a girl that just bought herself a new jacket or shoes that they looked fine even though you didn't really think so?? I sure have. I learned a LOOONg time ago that girls are the same. You got on a girls good side by complementing her looks and you can hurt a girls by criticizing her appearance. So I am an admitted liar. Have you ever made a bit of money and not declared it on your taxes?? I have. So I am a cheat and thief and a lot of other undesirable things. Can't have it both ways. In for a penny. In for a pound. That's why I said I need grace and mercy. Not righteous judgment. Thank God nobody on here will be my judge. They are too perfect and righteous for me and I am just a fanboy I guess. LOL. No I was pulling for Morra to take it down. I knew that ****ing Shane was going to win all around anyway. Well I was really kind of pulling for John Brumback to win but I mean after he was out. He is so good we kind of expect him to win all the bank tournaments these days. Another great performance, Mr. Brumback from a long time fanboy and a religious co@Ksucker.
 

Cary

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Ouch. I think you got cold decked with the four queens. They usually want the victim to deal. The cooler came in on the cut I think. Were you distracted or asked a question as he was cutting the cards??? Have you ever told a girl that just bought herself a new jacket or shoes that they looked fine even though you didn't really think so?? I sure have. I learned a LOOONg time ago that girls are the same. You got on a girls good side by complementing her looks and you can hurt a girls by criticizing her appearance. So I am an admitted liar. Have you ever made a bit of money and not declared it on your taxes?? I have. So I am a cheat and thief and a lot of other undesirable things. Can't have it both ways. In for a penny. In for a pound. That's why I said I need grace and mercy. Not righteous judgment. Thank God nobody on here will be my judge. They are too perfect and righteous for me and I am just a fanboy I guess. LOL. No I was pulling for Morra to take it down. I knew that ****ing Shane was going to win all around anyway. Well I was really kind of pulling for John Brumback to win but I mean after he was out. He is so good we kind of expect him to win all the bank tournaments these days. Another great performance, Mr. Brumback from a long time fanboy and a religious co@Ksucker.
You'll never hear any judgements from me, Jimmy. We all have a history and I have more ghosts following me around than most anybody.

Re. the poker game: All six players were very heavily armed amatuers. I shuffled and dealt, no cold deck. Three of the six of us never came home, including the guy that won the hand (I was no where near him when it happened). Luck is a fleeting and fickle thing.
 

John Brumback

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John,

What is your opinion on what SVB did? Are you aware of it? Have you ever had anyone do that in a tourney?

Dennis
Of course I've had players try that on me.. Beer breath!!.Are you kiddin? That's why I'm so damn adament sp about calling your pocket good and loud!!!

I wasn't watching when It happened but If he really called it 4 and it went 2 and he tried to get it..yes that is tryin to cheat.No other way to look at it.
Like I said though,I was not there,for the record.

I'm proud to say that I really never have any problems when I'm playing.But they got to get up early to try to get anything over on me.I will be watching and paying very close attention,;)

Ps: I did call a foul on myself this dcc.I was playing Tony Mougey in the onepocket and I shot this shot real hard and hit the cball again about a foot away from the first time.Get this..he says what happened? LOL.John B.
 

John Brumback

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Actually John I have an understanding and appreciation for the challenges you and all serious players face. Although I don't really know you other than from this forum, I would trust you to invariably act in an honest and honorable manner (but I'd still cut the cards 'cause I always do. Daddy said to.).

All I've questioned is if it is OK and expected to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed foul, why isn't it also OK to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed illegally pocketed ball? From a purely ethical standpoint the situations are identical, albiet there might be serious practical and financial differences.

Or not. It all depends. Maybe.
Thanks for the nice answer and question.To your last question..an uncalled ball in bank pool doesnt' count.You have to spot it up.I even call my safes just to let the guy know that he doesn't have to worry about what I'm shooting at,ya know so he's not about to fall out of his chair wondering what the heck I'm doing.I learned that from the best bankers in the world.Watch Truman or me,we call or point to the pocket at each and every shot.No matter how easy it looks.Takes all the guess work out and we never ever have a problem.Thanks again.
John B.
 

John Brumback

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Ouch. I think you got cold decked with the four queens. They usually want the victim to deal. The cooler came in on the cut I think. Were you distracted or asked a question as he was cutting the cards??? Have you ever told a girl that just bought herself a new jacket or shoes that they looked fine even though you didn't really think so?? I sure have. I learned a LOOONg time ago that girls are the same. You got on a girls good side by complementing her looks and you can hurt a girls by criticizing her appearance. So I am an admitted liar. Have you ever made a bit of money and not declared it on your taxes?? I have. So I am a cheat and thief and a lot of other undesirable things. Can't have it both ways. In for a penny. In for a pound. That's why I said I need grace and mercy. Not righteous judgment. Thank God nobody on here will be my judge. They are too perfect and righteous for me and I am just a fanboy I guess. LOL. No I was pulling for Morra to take it down. I knew that ****ing Shane was going to win all around anyway. Well I was really kind of pulling for John Brumback to win but I mean after he was out. He is so good we kind of expect him to win all the bank tournaments these days. Another great performance, Mr. Brumback from a long time fanboy and a religious co@Ksucker.
Thanks! that was some cool stuff dude.Yeah I guess I can't win em all.Wonder who the sucker was that came up with that sayin? Had to be a sucker.haha.John B.
 

Cary

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Thanks! that was some cool stuff dude.Yeah I guess I can't win em all.Wonder who the sucker was that came up with that sayin? Had to be a sucker.haha.John B.
Cornelius McGillicuddy, Sr. (1862-1956)

AKA Connie Mack, baseball player, manager, team owner. Longest term manager in the history of the Majors. Five world Series Championships, part owner of the Phildelphia Athletics 1901-1936, full owner from then until 1954.

Can't say for sure if he was a sucker or not but it looks like he was a smoker. :):lol:rolleyes:





Another skill (of Connie Mack's) was tipping bats to throw off a player's swing. He never denied such tricks.
"Farmer Weaver was a catcher-outfielder for Louisville. I tipped his bat several times when he had two strikes on him one year, and each time the umpire called him out. He got even, though. One time there were two strikes on him and he swung as the pitch was coming in. But he didn't swing at the ball. He swung right at my wrists. Sometimes I think I can still feel the pain. I'll tell you I didn't tip his bat again. No, sir, not until the last game of the season and Weaver was at bat for the last time. After he had two strikes, I tipped his bat again and got away with it."
 
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John Brumback

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Cornelius McGillicuddy, Sr. (1862-1956)

AKA Connie Mack, baseball player, manager, team owner. Longest term manager in the history of the Majors. Five world Series Championships, part owner of the Phildelphia Athletics 1901-1936, full owner from then until 1954.

Can't say for sure if he was a sucker or not but it looks like he was a smoker. :):lol:rolleyes:





Another skill (of Connie Mack's) was tipping bats to throw off a player's swing. He never denied such tricks.
"Farmer Weaver was a catcher-outfielder for Louisville. I tipped his bat several times when he had two strikes on him one year, and each time the umpire called him out. He got even, though. One time there were two strikes on him and he swung as the pitch was coming in. But he didn't swing at the ball. He swung right at my wrists. Sometimes I think I can still feel the pain. I'll tell you I didn't tip his bat again. No, sir, not until the last game of the season and Weaver was at bat for the last time. After he had two strikes, I tipped his bat again and got away with it."
Neat stuff! Thanks.John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Of course I've had players try that on me.. Beer breath!!.Are you kiddin? That's why I'm so damn adament sp about calling your pocket good and loud!!!

I wasn't watching when It happened but If he really called it 4 and it went 2 and he tried to get it..yes that is tryin to cheat.No other way to look at it.
Like I said though,I was not there,for the record.

I'm proud to say that I really never have any problems when I'm playing.But they got to get up early to try to get anything over on me.I will be watching and paying very close attention,;)

Ps: I did call a foul on myself this dcc.I was playing Tony Mougey in the onepocket and I shot this shot real hard and hit the cball again about a foot away from the first time.Get this..he says what happened? LOL.John B.
John,

Unfortunately it (SVB) did happen and it should be on the AccuStats DVD when it comes out, they were recording the match at the time I believe.

I always knew that in a tournament situation you would call a foul on yourself if you committed one. I just figured it was your nature:).

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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John,

Unfortunately it (SVB) did happen and it should be on the AccuStats DVD when it comes out, they were recording the match at the time I believe.

I always knew that in a tournament situation you would call a foul on yourself if you committed one. I just figured it was your nature:).

Dennis
Thanks Dennis,Your not so bad after all:lol No really I appreciate that.I think you meant It.
Well anyway,I'm not going to cast judgement on SVB untill I see exactly how
it went down.Yes,I'm pretty sure they were recording it.Maybe we will see something different than the way we have just heard about.John B.
 
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