A Ball on the break proposal

Tom Wirth

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Well Steve, can we have a poll on the most popular options?

Ball on the break...Ball stays down and shooter continues his inning.
This regardless of who racked the balls. (My favorite)

Ball on the break. Ball spots, incoming player shoots.
(Why the need to spot the ball?) (At least give the shooter credit for making the damn thing)

Ball on the break, Ball stays down, opponent shoots. (My second choice)

Ball on break, Re-rack. Scratch on second break, Re-rack again...Stuck with outcome regardless of what happens.

Any other suggestions?

I vote for option #1

Tom
 

androd

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The way I play is like you mentioned, if they want to rerack, then no foul if you scratch on the rebrake.

If you make one and sit down, you'll find most brakes, when a ball goes leaves a gold mine for the opposite pocket.
 

Miller

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Well Steve, can we have a poll on the most popular options?

Ball on the break...Ball stays down and shooter continues his inning.
This regardless of who racked the balls. (My favorite)


Ball on the break. Ball spots, incoming player shoots.
(Why the need to spot the ball?) (At least give the shooter credit for making the damn thing)

Ball on the break, Ball stays down, opponent shoots. (My second choice)

Ball on break, Re-rack. Scratch on second break, Re-rack again...Stuck with outcome regardless of what happens.

Any other suggestions?

I vote for option #1

Tom
i'd vote for option #1 as well.....jmho

i've never understood why you penalize a guy for laying down a good one. (actually, a better one/or at least just as good is hanging it up....jmho). it's not like an opponent can't inspect a rack before the break....

(saw a spirited discussion between busty and harriman several yrs back at DCC re the way one was racking...i think it was more gamesmanship than anything...)

i've also always liked that if a player wants to lag, then that's what you do instead of flipping. my way of thinking is if you don't want your opponent to get the first break, then lay down a better lag than him...

if steve puts up a poll, i'm sure we could give members their collective/voted upon option in memphis….
 

darmoose

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The way I play is like you mentioned, if they want to rerack, then no foul if you scratch on the rebrake.

If you make one and sit down, you'll find most brakes, when a ball goes leaves a gold mine for the opposite pocket.
Rod,

I normally agree with your thoughts and ideas. I have to admit here that I don't understand why what you are saying here would be true? If one makes a ball on the break or one hangs a ball (near) the pocket, there can't be much of a difference as to what is available to the opponent, and surely can't be predictable, I don't think.:)


Tom,

First, we must be considering a rule for tournaments only, as private matches can be negotiated to be anything the two players desire, as we all know.

IN tournament situations, if it is a race to four, where the breaks are divided evenly, there is no issue. So, we are talking only about tournaments where there is a race to a odd number, which we could simply eliminate.

There is NO inherent advantage to "racking your own". Each player racks the same number of times, in all cases the opponent has the right to inspect the rack, so nothing to gain there.

My first option, if we must make a rule would be to ban "rack your own" in OP tournament play (no further issue).

If we must accommodate this "racking your own" for some unknown reason, I would vote for the breaker having to break and sit down, no matter what happens (if he makes a ball he keeps it). This is the simplest solution; anything else just further complicates the game, a game known for it's simplicity and subtleness, and ease of understanding, unnecessarily.

Should there be a modicum of truth to what Rod says, then the made ball works to offset the "goldmine". No matter the rule, discerning thoughtful OP players will ferret out the odds to take advantage of having the break. It could be that they will attempt to avoid making a ball in favor of positioning balls instead, which is done routinely throughout the game anyway.

I think we must keep in mind that we are trying to reduce the unfair advantage of having a majority of breaks in some tournaments, nothing more.:D

TD's should have pushed back at this "rack your own" movement immediately, that was born out of some frustrated player thinking that he was being cheated, or believing he could gain some advantage if he could actually touch the balls before he broke. This is a relatively new development that has caused lots of consternation and no good.:sorry
 
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LSJohn

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if it is a race to four, where the breaks are divided evenly, there is no issue. So, we are talking only about tournaments where there is a race to a odd number, which we could simply eliminate.
I'm with you except on this point. When someone wins by one game, there can't be an equal number of breaks, whatever the number of games in a race. Round Robin makes equal breaks if the sets are even number.
 

androd

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Rod,

I normally agree withcomes out for a shot your thoughts and ideas. I have to admit here that I don't understand why what you are saying here would be true? If one makes a ball on the break or one hangs a ball (near) the pocket, there can't be much of a difference as to what is available to the opponent, and surely can't be predictable, I don't think.:)
Darrel you may be correct, I've played a lot of it, my favorite way to play.
Often the ball going in, not hanging frees up bank options, also the corner ball
often comes out for a shot, I noticed when a ball is made the CB rarely
comes to the second diamond. Just what I've noticed, or think I've noticed
(getting a little weary) Still play 3/4 hours 6 days a week.
P.S. I'm usually giving weight, so if they make a ball I don't mind.
 
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vapros

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In any match - regardless of the number of games - if it goes hill-hill the player who broke first gets the last break. His edge.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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At the 2019 MOT players meeting in Philly was this even brought up. If so what break rules did the players decide to play by?
It never came up in the 2018 MOT, but we did rack our own! Whitey
 

darmoose

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I'm with you except on this point. When someone wins by one game, there can't be an equal number of breaks, whatever the number of games in a race. Round Robin makes equal breaks if the sets are even number.
In any match - regardless of the number of games - if it goes hill-hill the player who broke first gets the last break. His edge.
You guys are correct, my bad. :sorry I was thinking of a RR I guess. But, everything else I said is gospel.:lol:lol
 

darmoose

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Darrel you may be correct, I've played a lot of it, my favorite way to play.
Often the ball going in, not hanging frees up bank options, also the corner ball
often comes out for a shot, I noticed when a ball is made the CB rarely
comes to the second diamond. Just what I've noticed, or think I've noticed
(getting a little weary) Still play 3/4 hours 6 days a week.
Rod,

Good for you, keep on trucking. We are all getting there. You are an inspiration.

:):):);)
 

Tobermory

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Break and make a ball: sit down. That seems to be the fairest rule of all. Making a ball is 99% luck. People have tried to convince me otherwise, but nobody has been able to demonstrate the ability to make more balls on the break than would occur by chance. Having the break in a game is already a huge advantage, and it would be more fair to eliminate the luck factor at the outset of a game.
 

Tom Wirth

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Rod,


Tom,


IN tournament situations, if it is a race to four, where the breaks are divided evenly, there is no issue. So, we are talking only about tournaments where there is a race to a odd number, which we could simply eliminate.

Darmoose, Whatever the number of games a match plays to one player starts the match. If the match runs hill hill that player has had both first and last break. Advantage goes to the player who won the flip or lag.


My first option, if we must make a rule would be to ban "rack your own" in OP tournament play (no further issue). Fine by me.

If we must accommodate this "racking your own" for some unknown reason, I would vote for the breaker having to break and sit down, no matter what happens (if he makes a ball he keeps it). This is the simplest solution; anything else just further complicates the game, a game known for it's simplicity and subtleness, and ease of understanding, unnecessarily.

I'm okay with this but I wonder how you can say this is the simplest solution when in all other games if a player makes a ball on the break he continues his inning. How is that not the simplest solution in One Pocket ?

I think we must keep in mind that we are trying to reduce the unfair advantage of having a majority of breaks in some tournaments, nothing more.:D

The only way to assure this is to alter the format to one where a player must win a designated number of games and win by a margin of two.

Tom
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I've seen Cory Duel make the corner ball time after time on the break playing 8 ball. He gets to rack his own. You have to wonder if he has got some secret tweak!
Pretty simple solution, go back to playing OP by the rules, 'opponent racks', breaker inspects rack before the break, game on!
Or the next option; breaker racks and opponent inspects the rack, game on!

I am still wondering why no one has answered my question about how the break was played at the 2019 MOT! This is my 3rd time asking this question. Whitey
 

darmoose

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I've seen Cory Duel make the corner ball time after time on the break playing 8 ball. He gets to rack his own. You have to wonder if he has got some secret tweak!
Pretty simple solution, go back to playing OP by the rules, 'opponent racks', breaker inspects rack before the break, game on!
Or the next option; breaker racks and opponent inspects the rack, game on!

I am still wondering why no one has answered my question about how the break was played at the 2019 MOT! This is my 3rd time asking this question. Whitey
Whitey,

I think we played rerack if you make a ball. If you scratch you spot the ball you made and are -1. I could be wrong, but I think that is what was decided.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Whitey,

I think we played rerack if you make a ball. If you scratch you spot the ball you made and are -1. I could be wrong, but I think that is what was decided.
thanks Darmoose, sounds good, I like the conclusion if there is also a scratch. There was a thread on this, and I believe this method of solving the scratch had the most consensus, BIH/BTL -1.
When it comes to alternative rules, I like it that the players attending a MOT make a decision on how they want to play the tournament. I like this flexibility from year to year for our MOT's.
 
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powerball

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Another Option

Another Option

Nobody wants another choice, however, this was suggested to me by a pretty good player and hasn't been mentioned so far.

Make one on the break and you have the option of "keeping the ball and turning the table over to your opponent" or "re-racking".

Do what you all like, I'll play by the rules.

Powerball
 

hankh

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Howdy All;

I don't know from nuttin' about 1P, am just getting my toes wet in Banks, have
played 98% bar tables doin' 8-ball and some 9-ball and some Straight (first
game I learned).

My input here would be why not work it like most other full rack games and
if the breaker makes a ball he keeps shooting. When his "Inning" is over spot
ball(s), made on the break and the game moves on. If this has been mentioned
earlier then my apologizes to the original suggester.

Or when all else fails follow the rule as written and found in the Header of this very forum
Kinda simple and to the point as I read it.

2.2 The opening break begins with ball in hand behind the head string. On the break, the cue ball may contact either a cushion or any ball in the rack first, but in either case, after contacting at least one ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or at least one object ball must contact a rail, otherwise it is a one foul penalty. As long as a legal stroke is employed from behind the head string on the break, the incoming player must play the balls where they lie – there are no re-racks for a pocket scratch or failure to contact a cushion or pocket a ball on the break.

hank
 
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Jimmy B

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Nobody wants another choice, however, this was suggested to me by a pretty good player and hasn't been mentioned so far.

Make one on the break and you have the option of "keeping the ball and turning the table over to your opponent" or "re-racking".

Do what you all like, I'll play by the rules.

Powerball


Damm, that's a pretty bad ass idea... This gives the breaker just about the right amount of reward for making a ball, while not giving him the whole game.. And it allows him choice of rerack if he opens the goldmine to the other side.. Could be the final solution, as someone once said.. I endorse it..
 

Cory in dc

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Break and make a ball: sit down. That seems to be the fairest rule of all. Making a ball is 99% luck. People have tried to convince me otherwise, but nobody has been able to demonstrate the ability to make more balls on the break than would occur by chance. Having the break in a game is already a huge advantage, and it would be more fair to eliminate the luck factor at the outset of a game.
This is simple and saves time. I'll join the crowd in voting for it! It's not what we did in Philly, but it makes a lot of sense. (Still with the option for the opponent to check the rack.)

Also, it should eliminate the debate about making a ball and scratching under re-rack rules. Here, if you make a ball and scratch, then you sit down. But before you sit down, you spot the ball and put up a coin.

Cory

P.S. It's a bit slower, but powerball's option is pretty good too.
 
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