9-ball rack break strategy

ChrisBanks

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I haven't watched closely as to how the best bankers try to break.

My first thought is to try to leave the cueball near the headrail. Because you are likely to leave just 1 or 2 balls near the headrail, and you might end up with an easy cross corner that you could use to play position for the next ball.

If you leave the cueball near the middle of the table, you are likely to leave an easy cross side, but there is a greater likelihood of having interfering balls and clutter near the center of the table.

Of course if you leave a good cross corner near the head rail and fail to pocket a ball, you're probably going to give your opponent a ball or two right from the start.
 

NH Steve

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ChrisBanks said:
I haven't watched closely as to how the best bankers try to break.

My first thought is to try to leave the cueball near the headrail. Because you are likely to leave just 1 or 2 balls near the headrail, and you might end up with an easy cross corner that you could use to play position for the next ball.

If you leave the cueball near the middle of the table, you are likely to leave an easy cross side, but there is a greater likelihood of having interfering balls and clutter near the center of the table.

Of course if you leave a good cross corner near the head rail and fail to pocket a ball, you're probably going to give your opponent a ball or two right from the start.
My only strategy is to hope I make a ball and mainly, try to avoid scratching!
 

ChrisBanks

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I guess there is none.

On the break I think you at least have the ability to try and and leave the cueball in the foot, middle, or head of the table.

I'm not sure if there would be a preference for the breaker.
 

John Brumback

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Not allowed to break safe playing short rack banks.Therefore you should try to pop them good and squat the cball In the middle.If you try some of that other stuff you could scatch doing that also,so you might as well give yourself a good chance.But what do I know.JB
 

ChrisBanks

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John Brumback said:
Not allowed to break safe playing short rack banks.Therefore you should try to pop them good and squat the cball In the middle.If you try some of that other stuff you could scatch doing that also,so you might as well give yourself a good chance.But what do I know.JB
I guess you're right John. I just thought that maybe there could be an advantage to the breaker if he could pocket a ball and leave the cueball near the headrail. But you're right, it also is a higher risk of scratching.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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ChrisBanks said:
I haven't watched closely as to how the best bankers try to break.

My first thought is to try to leave the cueball near the headrail. Because you are likely to leave just 1 or 2 balls near the headrail, and you might end up with an easy cross corner that you could use to play position for the next ball.

If you leave the cueball near the middle of the table, you are likely to leave an easy cross side, but there is a greater likelihood of having interfering balls and clutter near the center of the table.

Of course if you leave a good cross corner near the head rail and fail to pocket a ball, you're probably going to give your opponent a ball or two right from the start.
CB,

Are you gambling and betting your own cash (or a backers cash) or playing in a funsie tournament? Are you capable of running 5 & out if you make one on the break? Is your opponent capable of running 5 & out if you don't make one on the break? These are the questions to be answered before I can give you my answer.

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
CB,

Are you gambling and betting your own cash (or a backers cash) or playing in a funsie tournament? Are you capable of running 5 & out if you make one on the break? Is your opponent capable of running 5 & out if you don't make one on the break? These are the questions to be answered before I can give you my answer.

Dennis
Nah,your a little late.I've already gave him the correct answer.All the stuff you've mentioned doesn't mean anything.Let me say this again....you have to try to break them hard and wideopen when playing short rack banks.

Ps: what Is a funsie tournament? Never heard of one of them before.John B.
 

ChrisBanks

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John Brumback said:
Nah,your a little late.I've already gave him the correct answer.All the stuff you've mentioned doesn't mean anything.Let me say this again....you have to try to break them hard and wideopen when playing short rack banks.

Ps: what Is a funsie tournament? Never heard of one of them before.John B.
Thank you John. I appreciate all the information you have put on this website. (And thanks to everyone else too)
 

Cowboy Dennis

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John Brumback said:
Nah,your a little late.I've already gave him the correct answer.All the stuff you've mentioned doesn't mean anything.Let me say this again....you have to try to break them hard and wideopen when playing short rack banks.

Ps: what Is a funsie tournament? Never heard of one of them before.John B.
John Brumback said:
Not allowed to break safe playing short rack banks.Therefore you should try to pop them good and squat the cball In the middle.If you try some of that other stuff you could scatch doing that also,so you might as well give yourself a good chance.But what do I know.JB
John,

I received your PM, it's appreciated and accepted. Don't take offense this time when you read this post.

You say that you cannot break safe (playing in a tourney I presume?) but you ignored that a person could be gambling and then you can break any damn way you want to.

A "funsie" tournament is any tournament that anybody ever played in, ever in history (in any sport).

Let's take a look at 10 of your tournament matches that I have on DVD. I'm only looking at your break, not your opponents so my numbers are automatically not completely representative of ALL the breaks in these matches.

V.S. Luat 2009 Finals #1
V.S. Luat 2009 Finals #2
V.S. Pagulayan 2011
V.S. R. Alcano 2011
V.S. L. Nevel 2005
V.S. F. Bustamante 2011
V.S. J. Miller 2004 Finals #1
V.S. J. Miller 2004 Finals #2
V.S. T. Hogue 2005 Semi-Finals
V.S. D. Matlock 2005 Finals

And the categories are; out of your 26 breaks in these 10 matches:

Made a ball on break & made at least one more ball: 12 times = 46%

Made a ball on break, left no shot, played safe: 1 time

Made a ball on break & missed a shot (this includes playing safe once): 8 times = 31%

Didn't make a ball on break: 6 times = 23%

Broke dry & gave up a shot: 6 times = 23%

Broke dry & gave up shot that oppo missed: 1 time = 17%

Broke dry & gave up shot, oppo made a ball or more: 5 times = 83%

Broke & scratched: 0 times

I'm not a statistical analysis expert but I think that you being at 46% for making a ball on break and then making a bank isn't comparable to playing safe and leaving no shot ever, except for long distance through traffic and probably leaving a shot if missed.

During your two finals matches with Luat in 2009 you never made a ball on the break and then pocketed a bank. Things like this negate what you think is a good approach to breaking (non-tourney). You beat Luat with superior skills, it had zero to do with the break on your part.

I do realize you must open-break in a tourney but I specifically stated that it depends on whether or not a person is gambling and several other criteria which you said "doesn't mean anything".

Why would anybody open-break when gambling when the best banker around right now only makes a ball on the break and then banks one in 46% of the time? I do realize that my sampling is very limited to only 26 of your breaks and I do not look at the oppo's breaks but I only have so much time:p .

I realize that numbers can sometimes be twisted to try to make a point so I've tried to refrain from that. My basic point is that you can break safe 100% of the time and leave a long tough shot, if any, or you can open-break and take your chances. I'm breaking safe on my cash.

P.S. It's quite possible that I'm mis-representing something here but if I am it's not intentional, just an error on my part.

P.Ps. Now I can send these 3 cheap Detroit hookers home (they've been doing my research:), cost me $12.75, who's gonna pay for that? ).

Dennis
 

Banks

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Cowboy Dennis said:
out of your 26 breaks in these 10 matches:

Made a ball on break & made at least one more ball: 12 times = 46%

Made a ball on break, left no shot, played safe: 1 time

Made a ball on break & missed a shot (this includes playing safe once): 8 times = 31%

Didn't make a ball on break: 6 times = 23%

Broke dry & gave up a shot: 6 times = 23%

Broke dry & gave up shot that oppo missed: 1 time = 17%

Broke dry & gave up shot, oppo made a ball or more: 5 times = 83%

Broke & scratched: 0 times
The problem with numbers, is that they can easily distort the facts.. I'm channeling my inner Yogi Berra.

Broke dry & gave up shot that opponent missed: 1 time ... 1/26 is more like 4% of the breaks.

Consider.. our Big Buddy broke and made a bank 46% of the time. Broke dry, gave up a shot and opponent made a ball is actually 5/26, so just under 20%. 21 out of 26 breaks he made a ball, and 12 of 21 resulted in points. That's a 12:5 ratio off his break.

Overall, his break led to him scoring over twice as often off his break as his opponent. That sounds like a pretty good success rate when you've got just about every opponent outgunned. The fact that his opponents manage a score 5/6 of the time off his break is more a testament to his break, imho. A weak break could spell doom with these numbers, but it doesn't sound like his opponents are getting more opportunities than he is.

"Think! How the hell are you gonna think and hit at the same time?"
 

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
John,

I received your PM, it's appreciated and accepted. Don't take offense this time when you read this post.

You say that you cannot break safe (playing in a tourney I presume?) but you ignored that a person could be gambling and then you can break any damn way you want to.

A "funsie" tournament is any tournament that anybody ever played in, ever in history (in any sport).

Let's take a look at 10 of your tournament matches that I have on DVD. I'm only looking at your break, not your opponents so my numbers are automatically not completely representative of ALL the breaks in these matches.

V.S. Luat 2009 Finals #1
V.S. Luat 2009 Finals #2
V.S. Pagulayan 2011
V.S. R. Alcano 2011
V.S. L. Nevel 2005
V.S. F. Bustamante 2011
V.S. J. Miller 2004 Finals #1
V.S. J. Miller 2004 Finals #2
V.S. T. Hogue 2005 Semi-Finals
V.S. D. Matlock 2005 Finals

And the categories are; out of your 26 breaks in these 10 matches:

Made a ball on break & made at least one more ball: 12 times = 46%

Made a ball on break, left no shot, played safe: 1 time

Made a ball on break & missed a shot (this includes playing safe once): 8 times = 31%

Didn't make a ball on break: 6 times = 23%

Broke dry & gave up a shot: 6 times = 23%

Broke dry & gave up shot that oppo missed: 1 time = 17%

Broke dry & gave up shot, oppo made a ball or more: 5 times = 83%

Broke & scratched: 0 times

I'm not a statistical analysis expert but I think that you being at 46% for making a ball on break and then making a bank isn't comparable to playing safe and leaving no shot ever, except for long distance through traffic and probably leaving a shot if missed.

During your two finals matches with Luat in 2009 you never made a ball on the break and then pocketed a bank. Things like this negate what you think is a good approach to breaking (non-tourney). You beat Luat with superior skills, it had zero to do with the break on your part.

I do realize you must open-break in a tourney but I specifically stated that it depends on whether or not a person is gambling and several other criteria which you said "doesn't mean anything".

Why would anybody open-break when gambling when the best banker around right now only makes a ball on the break and then banks one in 46% of the time? I do realize that my sampling is very limited to only 26 of your breaks and I do not look at the oppo's breaks but I only have so much time:p .
Play full rack.lol
I realize that numbers can sometimes be twisted to try to make a point so I've tried to refrain from that. My basic point is that you can break safe 100% of the time and leave a long tough shot, if any, or you can open-break and take your chances. I'm breaking safe on my cash.

P.S. It's quite possible that I'm mis-representing something here but if I am it's not intentional, just an error on my part.

P.Ps. Now I can send these 3 cheap Detroit hookers home (they've been doing my research:), cost me $12.75, who's gonna pay for that? ).

Dennis
Shooo,Man I'm so glad I didn't piis you off to bad.I got to be more careful with what I say and how I come arcoss.I have said a few things on this here computer that I sure wish I could take back.I know your a man of alot of knowledge and I should respect my elders more often.( come to find out your not alot older than I am) Well thanks for taking time to do this.

I'm really shocked at those numbers! I have never been one to pay attention to stats either.I got to start sneaking In some safe breaks,uhh? JK kinda.

Ok,you keep coming up with the part about wheather your gambling or tournys.( you gotta a good beef)Now this Is just me,but I think there Is or should be some standered
rules no matter what kind of game we are playing.I mean I guess you can just make up rules as you go along.But as far as I know,9ball banks require you to break widepoen.Playing full rack you can break like you want but In short rack,your really not supposed to.How's come your so against standered rules? To me,I just think there would be alot less arguing and going through all the stuff to get the rules worked out before you and I play.I really love It when I''m getting ready to gamble with someone and right before we flip the coin I can just say...tournament rules? and hopefully they just say...ok.I really like It when I hear that.That takes away alot of trouble,arguing and all doubts, right then and there.

Ps: you would like the sign In my brother's shop where we play ping pong,cornhole,darts and drink some.It says "when we are at your house wi'll play by your rules" LOL Thanks again for doing all that.Buy the hookers one on me.John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Banks said:
The problem with numbers, is that they can easily distort the facts.. I'm channeling my inner Yogi Berra.

Broke dry & gave up shot that opponent missed: 1 time ... 1/26 is more like 4% of the breaks.This point is irrelevant whether I wrote it or you did, John can't control what happens after he's in a chair. The speed of his opponent dictates what happens here.

Consider.. our Big Buddy broke and made a bank 46% of the time. Broke dry, gave up a shot and opponent made a ball is actually 5/26, so just under 20%. 21 out of 26 breaks he made a ball, and 12 of 21 resulted in points. That's a 12:5 ratio off his break.

Restating in different words what I wrote doesn't really add to your argument.

Overall, his break led to him scoring over twice as often off his break as his opponent. That sounds like a pretty good success rate when you've got just about every opponent outgunnedIf he had his opponents outgunned, which he seems to, then he could beat them safe-breaking, remember he never made a ball on the break and then made another ball playing Luat in 2009 in two finals matches.. The fact that his opponents manage a score 5/6 of the time off his break is more a testament to his break, imho. A weak break could spell doom with these numbers, but it doesn't sound like his opponents are getting more opportunities than he is.

"Think! How the hell are you gonna think and hit at the same time?"
If John safe-broke (gambling) his opponent would never get a good shot unless he hit it bad, that's a 100% success rate. His opponent would have to make a good reply to leave John safe.

Dennis
 

Cowboy Dennis

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John Brumback said:
But as far as I know,9ball banks require you to break widepoen.Playing full rack you can break like you want but In short rack,your really not supposed toJohn, we both know that when we are gambling there are no standard rules..How's come your so against standered rules? To me,I just think there would be alot less arguing and going through all the stuff to get the rules worked out before you and I play.I really love It when I''m getting ready to gamble with someone and right before we flip the coin I can just say...tournament rules? and hopefully they just say...okI cannot even write on this site what my response would be to that question if you ever thought I was so stupid as to answer it "O.K."..I really like It when I hear that.That takes away alot of trouble,arguing and all doubts, right then and there.

Buy the hookers one on me.John B.
John,

The hookers say to tell you thanks:D .

The bottom line is this: when gambling, why take a chance on anything that you can control almost everytime?

Dennis
 

Banks

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Cowboy Dennis said:
If John safe-broke (gambling) his opponent would never get a good shot unless he hit it bad, that's a 100% success rate. His opponent would have to make a good reply to leave John safe.

Dennis
Then why don't we see safety breaks in 9/8b? Because the rules dictate otherwise.

Implying that he would have a good shot 100% of the time by breaking safe is simply misleading. Now, if you said his opponent had no ball to bank 100% of the time, I'd agree. Then you'd just end up playing a slow safety game. If he's breaking and pocketing 50% and breaking and his opponents pocketing 20%, he should keep breaking open. With a success rate of 20/24 excluding the Luat games, I'd consider that a huge advantage. Maybe he should work more on his break. ;)

If I've got the upper hand in anything, I like to apply pressure as much as I can.. lean on them until they break. Like Freddy said, that if you need fewer than your opponent, the best thing you can do is open up the table to apply pressure. I know it may be quite time-consuming, but if you get a chance, I'd really be interested in the results of after the opponent's first chance at the table. Those names are nothing to scoff at, so the opponent's speed difference isn't as relevant here, I think.

Ugh, 3 more minutes at work..
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Banks said:
Then why don't we see safety breaks in 9/8b? Because the rules dictate otherwise.We're talking about short-rack banks, no other game

Implying that he would have a good shot 100% of the time by breaking safe is simply misleading.I never implied this Now, if you said his opponent had no ball to bank 100% of the time, I'd agree. Then you'd just end up playing a slow safety game. If he's breaking and pocketing 50% and breaking and his opponents pocketing 20%, he should keep breaking open. With a success rate of 20/24 excluding the Luat games, I'd consider that a huge advantage. Maybe he should work more on his break. ;)

If I've got the upper hand in anything, I like to apply pressure as much as I can.. lean on them until they break. Like Freddy said, that if you need fewer than your opponent, the best thing you can do is open up the table to apply pressure. I know it may be quite time-consuming, but if you get a chance, I'd really be interested in the results of after the opponent's first chance at the table.I thought that's what I posted Those names are nothing to scoff at, so the opponent's speed difference isn't as relevant here, I think.Here you disprove your own argument, if the opponents speed wasn't as relevant then John would've lost the games he didn't make a ball.

Ugh, 3 more minutes at work..
Banks,

No disrespect intended to you at all but if you can't argue a point better than this please don't expect any more responses from me.

You have repeated in different words what I wrote, you have misinterpreted and/or misconstrued what I wrote and you have, with your own argument, backed what I said was true.

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
John,

The hookers say to tell you thanks:D .

The bottom line is this: when gambling, why take a chance on anything that you can control almost everytime?

Dennis
Tell em they are welcome.
Ok,If it was up to me,I would never play short rack In the first place.But since I don't go on the road,hustlin..my main bankpool pool Is the DCC At the DCC,the rule Is you have to break em widepoen.

For some reason I don't think you play tournament pool much.Maybe you do.
Well anyway explain to me what It Is,that causes you to not want a set of standered rules.That's my question to you,really.

One more Question.Don't get offended..why don't you play full rack?
Then you can play safe from the break all you want.I love to break safe,I just don't get to very much.I use the straight pool safe break when playin full rack.I'm not arguing just askin.Bet your havin a cold one while I am not.Darn It,John B.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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John Brumback said:
Tell em they are welcome.
Ok,If it was up to me,I would never play short rack In the first place.But since I don't go on the road,hustlin..my main bankpool pool Is the DCC At the DCC,the rule Is you have to break em widepoen.

For some reason I don't think you play tournament pool much.Maybe you do.
Well anyway explain to me what It Is,that causes you to not want a set of standered rules.That's my question to you,really.

One more Question.Don't get offended..why don't you play full rack?
Then you can play safe from the break all you want.I love to break safe,I just don't get to very much.I use the straight pool safe break when playin full rack.I'm not arguing just askin.Bet your havin a cold one while I am not.Darn It,John B.
John,

I understand that you mainly play banks at the DCC so you play by those rules, that doesn't mean you cannot figure out which is the best way to gamble.

As to me playing, I barely play at all anymore much less in a tournament. If the DCC were held across the street from my house I wouldn't enter it or even be there at all, I do not care about tournaments and never have.

As far as me not wanting a set of standard rules, I never said that, I said (basically) that tournament rules don't apply in gambling situations.

Also, if I did play banks all the time the only way I would prefer to play is full-rack, short-rack is for tournaments. Short-rack banks vs. full-rack banks is like 9-Ball vs. One-Pocket. We both agree on something after all:D .

John, did you ever gamble at short-rack banks and safe break?

Yes, I am having a few cold ones, sorry for your poor luck in that endeavor tonight:eek::p .

Dennis
 

John Brumback

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Cowboy Dennis said:
John,

I understand that you mainly play banks at the DCC so you play by those rules, that doesn't mean you cannot figure out which is the best way to gamble.

As to me playing, I barely play at all anymore much less in a tournament. If the DCC were held across the street from my house I wouldn't enter it or even be there at all, I do not care about tournaments and never have.

As far as me not wanting a set of standard rules, I never said that, I said (basically) that tournament rules don't apply in gambling situations.

Also, if I did play banks all the time the only way I would prefer to play is full-rack, short-rack is for tournaments. Short-rack banks vs. full-rack banks is like 9-Ball vs. One-Pocket. We both agree on something after all:D .

John, did you ever gamble at short-rack banks and safe break?

Yes, I am having a few cold ones, sorry for your poor luck in that endeavor tonight:eek::p .

Dennis
No, I have never broke safe playing short rack bank.John B.
 
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