2012 One Pocket HOF Offical Discussion Thread

[JAM]

Good to see you posting JAM. The old-time players could use some more attention, for sure.

Regarding eligibility, we have been going with the guideline of twenty years as a player of significance on the national scene. Shannon happened to be a precocious young player, who won his first major tournament more than 20 years ago at the age of 19, after already having a history as an action player when he was even younger. Cliff emerged a little later in my opinion. I know he did not win a major One Pocket event until 1994, several years after Shannon. Certainly both were in action before they won those. Obviously, Cliff developed into a great great One Pocket player deserving of HOF election. My point is simply to point out the time line.

If you're basing the eligibility on tin cups, then Cliff doesn't belong in the One-Pocket Hall of Fame. Sadly, there's quite a few players who get no recognition because they don't have tin cups. But when I look at the list of names on the One-Pocket Hall of Fame today, I see many that don't have any tin cups in one-pocket, some of whom I don't think I've ever seen win a one-pocket tournament, FWIW.

I appreciate all the effort that you put into this prestigious event, Steve. My opinions are only that: my opinions. I realize the rules for induction will not satisfy everybody. That's for sure. It's the same way in pool tournaments. There will always be someone who thinks a rule is not a good one.

I just believe in my heart of hearts that Cliff Joyner, more than all the other names on that list for one-pocket, should be inducted, and that's why I logged in to cast my vote today. To not induct him, especially after seeing the names of those who have been inducted before him, is very sad to me. But I'm only one vote.

Thanks for creating the One-Pocket Hall of Fame, Steve. It has brought joy to many people. Tin cups, as most know, is not always a measuring stick for who's the best. Short races really don't mean much in the scheme of things.

I'm sure the most popular player in 2012 will win. That's the way it is, I guess.

 

[fred bentivegna]

I wish Incardona would chime in here re the Cliff getting spotted by Shannon and not winning claim. I dont have any evidence myself because I never heard of them even playing, but my instincts tell me that that didnt happen in the time before Cliff hurt his back. I have played both players and not for $10 to $50 a game either.

I do know that Efren has spotted Cliff as much as 10 to 7 (and Cliff lost) at least once at the old DCC. He got 9 to 7 many times, and also got 9 to 8. Most of the time he lost. He never, in my opinion, played up to his speed against Efren. I personally thought he had the nuts with those games.

Beard

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Good to see you posting JAM. The old-time players could use some more attention, for sure.

Regarding eligibility, we have been going with the guideline of twenty years as a player of significance on the national scene. Shannon happened to be a precocious young player, who won his first major tournament more than 20 years ago at the age of 19, after already having a history as an action player when he was even younger. Cliff emerged a little later in my opinion. I know he did not win a major One Pocket event until 1994, several years after Shannon. Certainly both were in action before they won those. Obviously, Cliff developed into a great great One Pocket player deserving of HOF election. My point is simply to point out the time line.

That's a great point Steve. That "20 Year Time Factor" was what kept Shannon from being inducted earlier, not that he's even made it in yet this year.

No matter which of the two (Daulton & Joyner) get inducted this year, the other one is a bonafide shoe-in for next year. The real debate comes in 2014 and after.....who TO induct, as it's slim pickin's after Daulton & Joyner.

Regarding JAM's posts, she has a valid point about many of the voters not knowing or having alot of information on many of the deceased players. A few of us are pool historians and are well aware of the candidates, but others just may have never run across much info on these men.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

If you're basing the eligibility on tin cups, then Cliff doesn't belong in the One-Pocket Hall of Fame. Sadly, there's quite a few players who get no recognition because they don't have tin cups. But when I look at the list of names on the One-Pocket Hall of Fame today, I see many that don't have any tin cups in one-pocket, some of whom I don't think I've ever seen win a one-pocket tournament, FWIW.

I appreciate all the effort that you put into this prestigious event, Steve. My opinions are only that: my opinions. I realize the rules for induction will not satisfy everybody. That's for sure. It's the same way in pool tournaments. There will always be someone who thinks a rule is not a good one.

I just believe in my heart of hearts that Cliff Joyner, more than all the other names on that list for one-pocket, should be inducted, and that's why I logged in to cast my vote today. To not induct him, especially after seeing the names of those who have been inducted before him, is very sad to me. But I'm only one vote.

Thanks for creating the One-Pocket Hall of Fame, Steve. It has brought joy to many people. Tin cups, as most know, is not always a measuring stick for who's the best. Short races really don't mean much in the scheme of things.

I'm sure the most popular player in 2012 will win. That's the way it is, I guess.

JAM,
I voted and lobbied for Shannon for the past 5-6 years based on three things.....

1. The amount of major 1 pocket championships he's won over the years. He has more championships in fields of other great players than all the other candidates this year COMBINED. I put ALOT of weight on this because winning major championships over elite fields time and time again showcases just what level a player is on compared to his peers. In fact, personally, I give about 75% of my vote based on tournament wins. That's a very fair way of measuring the pecking oder of the greats over time. SD's record there speaks volumes.

2. He's gambled and been in action for 3/4 of his life. He really shouldn't be dismissed in that catagory. Cliff may have been in the spotlight more, with him winning so many of the big $ match ups he's won, but SD has been in action LONGER than Cliff and has played just as many match ups, albeit they're not talked about much on the forums. His longevity in tournament wins and money matching is enviable.

3. SD has the "plus factor" that he's started his own tour and is further promoting our great sport. Because of the Great Southern Billiard Tour, many players are able to play in tournaments (and bet it up) in events that wouldn't exist if SD hadn.t decided to given something back to pool.

No matter who gets it this year, the other will be automatic for next year.

Lastly, I always enjoy your musings, as you have a very strong background as a pool historian of sorts yourself, and you're still remembered for all those tournament updates and reports you gave back in the day. You're opinions and thought carry quite a bit of weight with many.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I wish Incardona would chime in here re the Cliff getting spotted by Shannon and not winning claim. I dont have any evidence myself because I never heard of them even playing, but my instincts tell me that that didnt happen in the time before Cliff hurt his back. I have played both players and not for $10 to $50 a game either.

I do know that Efren has spotted Cliff as much as 10 to 7 (and Cliff lost) at least once at the old DCC. He got 9 to 7 many times, and also got 9 to 8. Most of the time he lost. He never, in my opinion, played up to his speed against Efren. I personally thought he had the nuts with those games.

Beard

I wish "The Doctor" would chime in here on anything! He's one of the Mt Rushmore posters here. Him, Grady and you made / make this a very special place with the background you provide and the expertise on subject matter that you fellas bring / brought.

This is a fact that many members on here would agree with.

 

[NH Steve]

Just to be perfectly clear I like both Cliff and Shannon for the OnePocket Hall of Fame they are both just the kind of player that we're looking for.

 

[androd]

Many, if not most, of the members of this forum and AzBilliards don't know who half of the nominees are, especially those who are deceased. How can anyone make an educated vote without knowing all the names on the nominee list? It might be advantageous to provide a little color to each name on the list for the younger voting members, number one. I've been around pool since the late '60s, and I don't know some of the names on the list. I may have heard of the names but know very little about them.

Beard gave a good synopsis in post # 7 of this thread.

Johnny Irish= Jersey Red said he was the best
.
Marcel Camp= Eddie Taylor said Camp would play one game for all he had and play his very top speed for it.

Harold Worst= Every player said he was unbelievable and unbeatable.

Clem= Puckett said he could probably beat anyone.

Spaeth= saw him play in his prime. Played well but Cannonball beat him pretty easily.

Mex Johnny and Irvolino= Saw them past their prime. Good players but not great at that time.

I voted for Cliff and Camp, because I've played and watched them play and have great respect for both. I've played some of the others, but they weren't in the same class.
Rod.

 

[lfigueroa]

I don't like AZB much. Too many wing nuts. But I did check out the link, and it kind of saddened me to see ex-1po guys and others posting there who ought to be posting here. We've had some good guys on here: Brumback, Daulton (briefly), Artie Bodendorfer, Lou F., Tom S. and others. Stroud doesn't post much anymore; Fred's on a sabbatical; Cardone posts less and less. There have been others. They just get tired of the barrage of insults and disrespect from one or two malcontents, so they don't bother anymore.

Doc

Yeah, I got tired of the bickering. When I come over here my expectations are, right or wrong, to be amongst 1pocket players. IOW, I expect a certain level of maturity. Over there, I know I'm getting into the cyber equivalent of a bar 8ball tournament and am willing to fade the baloney, morons, and drunks. There are good people over there as well. Also, I'm not a big fan of all the "what's the shot" threads that sometimes take over here. Just a personal dislike. There are a couple of other things going on too, but it's not worth getting into.

So, I check things out here once in a while. Back on topic: Joyner and Johnny Irish seem automatic to me.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Ktown]

I wish Incardona would chime in here re the Cliff getting spotted by Shannon and not winning claim. I dont have any evidence myself because I never heard of them even playing, but my instincts tell me that that didnt happen in the time before Cliff hurt his back. I have played both players and not for $10 to $50 a game either.

I do know that Efren has spotted Cliff as much as 10 to 7 (and Cliff lost) at least once at the old DCC. He got 9 to 7 many times, and also got 9 to 8. Most of the time he lost. He never, in my opinion, played up to his speed against Efren. I personally thought he had the nuts with those games.

Beard

I know Shannon better than anyone on here short of JB. I am not going to start arguing with anyone on here about what I posted, I got it straight from the horse's mouth. Shannon didn't tell me "some BS" to try to boost his resume, he has no need to. He told me how they played when they played and how it turned out. He wasn't trying to belittle Cliff, he respects Cliff and likes him a lot.

I believe Cliff deserves to be in the HOF, as much as anyone else, but I do believe that Shannon has done enough to deserve to be in as a first ballot guy. The mention that Cliff has fewer "tin cups" and that he was primarily an action man as some sort of a point of justification is somewhat eroneous. Cliff stayed in action on other people's money due to his poor choices with his own, no other reason. I am not saying this as a knock on Cliff, I genuinely like him, but the fact he gambled more than Shannon does not mean he is more deserving. I am not taking anything away from Cliff, he is and was a great player but the line to play Shannon some onepocket was also very short and very distinguished, the weak need not apply.

If Shannon says he spotted Cliff and won, more than once, I believe him. Whether you do or not is your decision.......

 

[wincardona]

I wish "The Doctor" would chime in here on anything! He's one of the Mt Rushmore posters here. Him, Grady and you made / make this a very special place with the background you provide and the expertise on subject matter that you fellas bring / brought.

This is a fact that many members on here would agree with.

Ok, i'll chime in, not only on who I feel is the most deserving of the two great champions, but also how I remember them playing and how it went.
Like I initially said, both Shannon and Cliff are the two logical choices for the induction. I have been closely around pool, and both of these players for the past 30 years, and I have never heard of them playing one pocket for money, never. So I decided to call Cliff and ask him if they ever played and who won, ect, ect. He said that they played in the early 90's a race to 4 or 5 for $3,000 with Shannon winning. They played in Columbia SC. They played even, no spot was given to either player. He also said that he had asked Shannon to play several times after that, but for one reason or another the game never came off. I do know that in the early 90's Cliff wasn't as strong as a player than he was in the middle to late 90's. In my opinion Cliff was the strongest one pocket player in the world from the mid 90's to around 2006, then his speed started to drop. (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF REYES)Reyes gave Cliff 8/7 a few times and beat him. However, like someone else said "Cliff never played good against Reyes" That's true, has anyone else?I can believe that they only played once, like I said ....I never heard of them playing... So for Shannon and Cliff to have played several times would be hard for me to believe, simply because I would of heard about it. Especially if Shannon spotted Cliff. Imo. there's no one ever that played one pocket (other than Reyes) that could of spotted Cliff and won. I mean ever..in any time period. :sorry

Again, as far as who is more deserving? That's tooooooo close to call, which will be apparent with the results of the voting. I'll take plus "2 votes" and you can pick your side.

Dr. Bill

 

[NH Steve]

I see plenty of "tin cups" on Cliff's resume, JAM. I think you are mistaken on that point. Three US Open One Pocket titles and one at the DCC is plenty of hardware to qualify Cliff in that department.

Just to be clear, our HOF has three criteria: tin cups, action and promoting the game. Obviously both Cliff and Shannon have the first two covered big time. By my definition of promoting the game I think they have both contributed there too.

Two good candidates -- gotta like that!

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Joyner and Daulton are highly deserving players but maybe Shannon can clear up the confusion about whether he and Cliff played, how many times they played, how they played and who won. Shannon is a member here and I'm sure he could take 15 minutes to post a response.

Dennis

 

[JAM]

I see plenty of "tin cups" on Cliff's resume, JAM. I think you are mistaken on that point. Three US Open One Pocket titles and one at the DCC is plenty of hardware to qualify Cliff in that department.

Just to be clear, our HOF has three criteria: tin cups, action and promoting the game. Obviously both Cliff and Shannon have the first two covered big time. By my definition of promoting the game I think they have both contributed there too.

Two good candidates -- gotta like that!

Thank you for the information about Cliff's tournament wins. Truly, I guess I think of him more as an action player than a tournament soldier, but it is nice to know he does have these championship titles on his portfolio.

I actually like Shannon Daulton very much and really don't know Cliff at all. He's kind of a hard person to get to know. I've seen him at many events, and he barely says a word. He just steps up to the plate and gambles. Shannon, on the other hand, has charisma and a sparkling personality.

I will never, ever forget Shannon and Liljon at the Super Billiards Expo singing a capella together, some country song. It was priceless! The funny thing about it is they were really good! :lol

Here's a cute shot of Shannon and Keith taking a brewskie break in our hotel room between matches.

 

[Jimmy B]

Thank you for the information about Cliff's tournament wins. Truly, I guess I think of him more as an action player than a tournament soldier, but it is nice to know he does have these championship titles on his portfolio.

I actually like Shannon Daulton very much and really don't know Cliff at all. He's kind of a hard person to get to know. I've seen him at many events, and he barely says a word. He just steps up to the plate and gambles. Shannon, on the other hand, has charisma and a sparkling personality.

I will never, ever forget Shannon and Liljon at the Super Billiards Expo singing a capella together, some country song. It was priceless! The funny thing about it is they were really good! :lol

Here's a cute shot of Shannon and Keith taking a brewskie break in our hotel room between matches.

Yes he can sing quite well. He told about how his Dad gave him some money if he could learn and sing The Auctioneer Song (Leroy Van Dyke) when he was a kid. Didn't take him long, and that's a tough one. That's a pool player for you. I still think a fair solution is to put Cliff in the OP HOF this year, while inducting SD into the Bank HOF and then stretch it out and let SD go in the OP next time. I won't put up that Auctioneer Song because I only like to put vids in the video thread in members section, but it's on youtube. I enjoyed the Bonus Ball Threads, Jam. Fun stuff....

 

[lll]

Yes he can sing quite well. He told about how his Dad gave him some money if he could learn and sing The Auctioneer Song (Leroy Van Dyke) when he was a kid. Didn't take him long, and that's a tough one. That's a pool player for you. I still think a fair solution is to put Cliff in the OP HOF this year, while inducting SD into the Bank HOF and then stretch it out and let SD go in the OP next time. I won't put up that Auctioneer Song because I only like to put vids in the video thread in members section, but it's on youtube. I enjoyed the Bonus Ball Threads, Jam. Fun stuff....

jimmyB
id never want you to do something you dont want to,,,,,,,
so i thought id help you out.....
heres the video.....y'all
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblxAoWKsmE[/ame]

 

[vapros]

Well done, Larry. An old video like this one can lead you to a thousand others, by following the links at the end, and there's some amazing stuff out there. I wound up watching part of a long program about the fantastic career of Mel Blanc. Some of the younger guys may not even recognize the name. Some of the older ones will start recalling a hundred cartoon characters that he brought to life. Today's comedy isn't really very funny. Or is it just me?

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

In my opinion Cliff was the strongest one pocket player in the world from the mid 90's to around 2006, then his speed started to drop. (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF REYES)

Imo. there's no one ever that played one pocket (other than Reyes) that could of spotted Cliff and won. I mean ever..in any time period. :sorry

Dr. Bill

Having both played Cliff, and watched him play, many, many times during this time frame - I strongly agree with everything that Billy said here.

- Ghost

 

[Betdapot]

Looks like Cliffo is left out in the cold this year a travesty imo nothing against Shannon (he is very qualified and a sho-in for the banks) but if you polled all the top players from 1993-mid 2000's Cliff was the best state side ask guys like varner, fusco, pittsburgh billy, nevel, alex, corey, schmidt, jj, hopkins, martinez, buddy, effie, jose, gabe, scott, t-rex and busti what the think of cliff's game during that 15 year stretch. When onepocket world beaters were mentioned in a poolroom discussions did not get too far with out Cliff's name ringing out

 

[NH Steve]

Looks like Cliffo is left out in the cold this year a travesty imo nothing against Shannon (he is very qualified and a sho-in for the banks) but if you polled all the top players from 1993-mid 2000's Cliff was the best state side ask guys like varner, fusco, pittsburgh billy, nevel, alex, corey, schmidt, jj, hopkins, martinez, buddy, effie, jose, gabe, scott, t-rex and busti what the think of cliff's game during that 15 year stretch. When onepocket world beaters were mentioned in a poolroom discussions did not get too far with out Cliff's name ringing out

We'll see, still a lot of voting going on. And, there is always next year.

 

[fred bentivegna]

For those who missed my comments on HOF candidates Hubert Cokes and Mexican Johnny before I was rudely interrupted and my original post was deleted by Steve. (and rightly so)

First off, I want to repeat this. I saw Hubert Cokes at Johnston City play 8 or no count 1pkt, several times on fairly easy Gandy tables. Cokes also had a proposition whereby he bet he would run 8 and out and from an impossible looking position. If enough are interested I still remember the layout and the solution.

Next Mexican Johnny was an almost unstoppable force on the Bensinger 5 x 10s playing 1pkt, 9bll or banks. The only person to beat him playing 9 ball on the big tables was the great Mexican player, Chi Chi. When Incardona came to Bensingers he would only play Johnny on the 4 1/2 x 9. (It has been so long I forgot who won). I seen him ask Jimmy Moore to play 1pkt on the 5 x 10 in 61 or 62 and get refused. That's the facts Jack.

Real experts who were there can verify and certify Mexican Johnny's excellent talent and speed are Artie B and Dr Bill Incardona. People who actually, (like I did) played against him.

Beard

Still waiting for verification of all those beats Cliff took getting a spot from Shannon.