2 Questions On This Unique Shot

[sappo]

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AALW4BKkK3...IVVL4JHyL4KSkK4LQHL3MKcM3NHiP3OEoO1PYnn3QcQr@

I hope this wei table comes up. I have 2 questions. In this game i have pocket A and need only 1 ball to win. As you can see my opponent has left the 6 ball deep in the jaws of his pocket and the cue ball is deep in the jaws of the top rail pocket on his side. i can just see a sliver of the six ball. I saw 3 options: I could attempt the spot shot to win the game, I could attempt to roll the cue ball into the 6 ball and we would each need the last ball WHICH WAS SITTING on the spot or i could roll to the other side of the pocket taking an intentional foul and possibly corner hooking him.
So thats my 1st question, what would you do in this situation?

My 2nd question is a result of my decision. I chose the last option and tried to corner hook my opponent. Now heres what happened, as i attempted to gently hit the cue ball i hit it twice. I did not hold the cue ball to the other facing, the 2nd hit was unintentional and happened at the start of my little stroke. After the 2nd hit the cue ball actually rolled an inch or two. AS a result the cue ball did indeed stop right against the opposite facing of the pocket and my opponent was corner hooked. I spotted a ball from my pocket. Was that the correct thing to do or should i have penalized as if i trapped and held the cue ball intentionallly against the facing?

After i hear some responses ill tell you how it turned out? Sappo/Keith

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Keith....I would have shot the 6ball in - just shooting hard enough to make it...

If the cueball had been in the middle of the jaws of that pocket, instead of frozen on the rail as you showed it, then I would have shot the spot shot...

As for a ruling on your unintentional double hit - that's a tricky question - different people would probably have different opinions about it - the two players would have to resolve it between them...if I was your opponent, in a friendly match, I would probably suggest/say this...

I don't want to call an illegal shot on you..but on the other hand, I shouldn't have to shoot from wedged into the point as the result of an illegal shot...so I would suggest as a resolution that we put the cueball back where it was - and you shoot the shot again.

- Gho$t

PS, Here Keith, I'll post your layout up for you >>>


[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AALW4FbrY1PYOk@[/CUETABLE]

 

[lll]

i would make the 6. if you were concerned that you could only see a sliver of the 6 and could miss it i would one rail bank into it off the long rail on your side.
playing the spot shot from where the cue ball is id have to know how many times at of ten i think i could make it and how many times out of ten i can make it .im not a straight enough player with how often i play to shoot the spot shot from there with a ball hanging in his pocket
id rather have him playing for one ball with the q in the corner pocket and the ball he needs on the spot (i control that leave)
rather than him shooting the 6 and playing shape for where the 1 ended up if i missed( he is in control)
i dont think i would try to corner hook him

 

[NH Steve]

Keith....I would have shot the 6ball in - just shooting hard enough to make it...

If the cueball had been in the middle of the jaws of that pocket, instead of frozen on the rail as you showed it, then I would have shot the spot shot...

As for a ruling on your unintentional double hit - that's a tricky question - different people would probably have different opinions about it - the two players would have to resolve it between them...if I was your opponent, in a friendly match, I would probably suggest/say this...

I don't want to call an illegal shot on you..but on the other hand, I shouldn't have to shoot from wedged into the point as the result of an illegal shot...so I would suggest as a resolution that we put the cueball back where it was - and you shoot the shot again.

- Gho$t

PS, Here Keith, I'll post your layout up for you >>>

In my opinion, the "unsportsmanlike" call would not be the right call to make in that situation, where it does not appear obviously intentional, but rather might or might not have been intentional (from the opponent or referee perspective -- I know you said it was not on purpose). I like the Ghost's suggestion of replacing the position and making you hit it again (with a neutral observer if possible) -- and if you double-bumped or pinched it again, I would say forfeiting the game would be a reasonable call at that point -- after you got warned the first time. So you would know you had to hit it clean the second time or forfeit the game. Second time a forfeit is reasonable, even if it is "an accident" -- the reason being, if you attempt to do that cleanly and fail a second time, to me that means you "intentionally" invited the possibility of double kissing or pinching a second time by choosing to try the same shot again without sufficient adjustment of technique, so a forfeit is reasonable if you illegally hit it the second time even if you didn't intend to.

 

[gulfportdoc]

In my opinion, the "unsportsmanlike" call would not be the right call to make in that situation, where it does not appear obviously intentional, but rather might or might not have been intentional (from the opponent or referee perspective -- I know you said it was not on purpose). I like the Ghost's suggestion of replacing the position and making you hit it again (with a neutral observer if possible) -- and if you double-bumped or pinched it again, I would say forfeiting the game would be a reasonable call at that point -- after you got warned the first time. So you would know you had to hit it clean the second time or forfeit the game. Second time a forfeit is reasonable, even if it is "an accident" -- the reason being, if you attempt to do that cleanly and fail a second time, to me that means you "intentionally" invited the possibility of double kissing or pinching a second time by choosing to try the same shot again without sufficient adjustment of technique, so a forfeit is reasonable if you illegally hit it the second time even if you didn't intend to.

That seems like a pretty good solution. However, there always seems to be some things that don't add up in these rare situations.

If a guy double hits the CB, it's a foul, period. He must spot a ball. But if on the other hand the player is required to play the shot over, what happens to his original foul? Why should he get the chance to perfect his intentional foul?

It's traditionally been held that a player cannot be assessed more than one foul per inning. But in this situation the player theoretically ought to be assessed two fouls.

The difference between the double hit and a trapping on purpose would be the unsportsmanlike conduct. In our example the player accidentally double hit the CB, resulting in a bad leave for the opponent. In my view, the balls should lay as they are, and the player spots one up.

In a refereed game, the ref would have to listen to both sides, and make a decision based upon his judgement of who to believe, plus his assessment of any observer's comments.

In a private match the guys would just have to work it out. Although I doubt that many guys would agree to a game forfeiture...

Doc

 

[NH Steve]

<snip>

In a private match the guys would just have to work it out. Although I doubt that many guys would agree to a game forfeiture...

Doc

I think they might accept the idea if they got the warning and the chance of the do-over -- of course the reality after the second attempt could get sticky -- did he double hit or not?

 

[newfosgatesucks]

In tournament play would you get option of restoring it to previous position to play from there, taxing the opponent with a foul?

 

[beatle]

i see one of two options to give him. he spots a ball and shoots it over. or you get to move the ball away from the corner hook and he spots a ball.
no way should you have to be hooked because of a double hit here.

 

[gulfportdoc]

In tournament play would you get option of restoring it to previous position to play from there, taxing the opponent with a foul?

Only if the referee determined that the stroke was by means of an "illegal technique", for example trapping the CB.

Doc

 

[gulfportdoc]

i see one of two options to give him. he spots a ball and shoots it over. or you get to move the ball away from the corner hook and he spots a ball.
no way should you have to be hooked because of a double hit here.

Beatle, then what would you do if the player turned right around and did the same shot again, with the same result?

There is no provision for essentially giving the player ball in hand, as your example suggested by moving the CB to a favorable position.

In this particular case, with the facts as we know them, the CB must stay where it is, and the shooter is assessed a spotted ball penalty.

There are other positions or layouts on the table where the same result might occur with an unintentional double hit. This one just happened to occur near the pocket facing.

Doc

 

[sappo]

Doc, after discussing it we came to the same conclusion you did, i spotted a ball and played from there. with my opponent now hooked he kicked 1 rail at the ball in his pockets jaws, hit it real well but followed it in. i won the game from there and we both felt it was a good decision.
just a point i would have liked to pocket the 6 ball but the table had a little roll out and i was afraid if i played for the roll and it didnt happen i might easily hit the side rail and miss the 6 ball. Happy Holidays keith

 

[Tennessee Joe6]

Just another twist to this shot. If the opponent was getting ready to shoot the corner hook shot and you told him he can't trap or double hit the cue ball before he shoots. (This shot comes up quite often.) If he then does double hit the shot---Is it a foul, an illegal shot with loss of game, or WHAT?

 

[androd]

Just another twist to this shot. If the opponent was getting ready to shoot the corner hook shot and you told him he can't trap or double hit the cue ball before he shoots. (This shot comes up quite often.) If he then does double hit the shot---Is it a foul, an illegal shot with loss of game, or WHAT?

This was discussed on here, as I remember the shooter who makes the flagrant foul owes one ball and his opponent gets CB ball in hand behind the line.
Rod. <------- that's my memory of it.

 

[wincardona]

discretion call, or maybe not.

discretion call, or maybe not.

When a player is forewarned that a certain type of shot is illegal, and he intentionally fouls it should be loss of game. At the very least it should be a loss of a ball and the cue ball placed in a reasonable position on the table.

Billy I.

 

[stljohnny]

I don't really understand how a double-hit foul here is any more or less of an offense as compared to... when the CB is buried in the stack, but not frozen, and the player pushes through to nudge some balls open just slightly while still leaving the opponent totally screwed. Getting hooked as the result of a foul- any foul - is still a foul. It's a dirty trick foul, but I don't see it as anything "flagrant" ... like sweeping the table with the shaft.

I think there's too much grey area with little cb fouls like that and could lead to far too much arguing over intent.

 

[androd]

I don't really understand how a double-hit foul here is any more or less of an offense as compared to... when the CB is buried in the stack, but not frozen, and the player pushes through to nudge some balls open just slightly while still leaving the opponent totally screwed. Getting hooked as the result of a foul- any foul - is still a foul. It's a dirty trick foul, but I don't see it as anything "flagrant" ... like sweeping the table with the shaft.

I think there's too much grey area with little cb fouls like that and could lead to far too much arguing over intent.

A flagrant foul is pinning the CB against the bevel of the pocket and holding there with the stick to corner hook your opponent. Striking the CB twice on one foul would probably qualify. I don't think that was intended in Sappo's question. A settlement was made. Tenn.Joe's question was very different.
Rod.

 

[beatle]

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatle
i see one of two options to give him. he spots a ball and shoots it over. or you get to move the ball away from the corner hook and he spots a ball.
no way should you have to be hooked because of a double hit here.-----------------------------

so doc you missed what i meant or didnt tell it right.

make him spot a ball and shoot it again. if he does the same thing you can make him do it again still spotting a ball each time.

or just move the ball an inch or so away from where he corner hooked you so you have a shot.
same as if a player bumped a ball with his hand by accident and it hooked you. you would just move it back out to where you thought it should be.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Beatle and Billy-- As far as I know, there is no provision in any set of rules to simply "move the cueball" to a better position in response to a foul of this type.

If it's the first foul, then the rules are clear. The balls play where they lay, and the offender is penalized a ball.

If it's a second flagrant violation (such as trapping the CB) after the player has been warned, then the penalty would be up to the referee. The penalty could be either loss of game, loss of match, or disqualification-- whatever the referee believes is appropriate.

In a private match it really gets down to the negotiating skills of the players. However if a guy did a second flagrant violation after I warned him, I'd simply quit the match. If we were gambling, I'd negate the bet.

Doc

 

[wincardona]

Beatle and Billy-- As far as I know, there is no provision in any set of rules to simply "move the cueball" to a better position in response to a foul of this type.

If it's the first foul, then the rules are clear. The balls play where they lay, and the offender is penalized a ball.

If it's a second flagrant violation (such as trapping the CB) after the player has been warned, then the penalty would be up to the referee. The penalty could be either loss of game, loss of match, or disqualification-- whatever the referee believes is appropriate.

In a private match it really gets down to the negotiating skills of the players. However if a guy did a second flagrant violation after I warned him, I'd simply quit the match. If we were gambling, I'd negate the bet.

Doc

When two gamblers are playing one another they really want the action, especially if they are familiar with one another and have battled in the past. So if a situation developes like the one we're talking about, and the player is forewarned about a shot in terms of the legality of it and intentionally makes an illegal stroke then you should try to resolve it first with a compromise. The offending player really doesn't have grounds for an argument and should be willing to compromise. If he stands firm and doesn't want to agree to the terms (providing they are within reason)then I would agree with you and quit the match.

Billy I.

 

[Frank Almanza]

When two gamblers are playing one another they really want the action, especially if they are familiar with one another and have battled in the past. So if a situation developes like the one we're talking about, and the player is forewarned about a shot in terms of the legality of it and intentionally makes an illegal stroke then you should try to resolve it first with a compromise. The offending player really doesn't have grounds for an argument and should be willing to compromise. If he stands firm and doesn't want to agree to the terms (providing they are within reason)then I would agree with you and quit the match.

Billy I.

Gulfportdoc and Doctor Billy are absolutely correct here. I also would quit and have quit. No matter the price, it's not worth the aggravation, especially since I have a history of not playing well after a heated argument.