Gentile v Smith Shoot Out

[lfigueroa]

So, it's a fire fight. Toe to toe in the center of the ring, swing at will.

I believe that at one time or another we have all been involved in one of these.

But what is the psychology for a match turning into a game like this? Does one guy just believe they can out shoot the other guy? That they can run more balls? That the other guy will repeatedly fail "the blood test?" That they've detected a hitch in the other guy's stroke? That they just don't care about the bet (or their backer's money)?

What makes a player go this way? DS is not inventing a new style of 1pocket because we've all done it -- attack, attack, attack, and let the other guy either make the tough shot or sell out. Did DS just feel he could out shoot CG?

Lou Figueroa

 

[phil dade]

Hearns vs Hagler! Danny Smith can REALLY pocket balls. Chris made some creative shots and did some great runs. However, his shot selection was, in my opinion, too loose for Danny, who was also playing wide open. It was still see sawing when I got too tired and turned it off. He must have thought he could out run him. So much for my eveent pass.

 

[wincardona]

So, it's a fire fight. Toe to toe in the center of the ring, swing at will.

I believe that at one time or another we have all been involved in one of these.

But what is the psychology for a match turning into a game like this? Does one guy just believe they can out shoot the other guy? That they can run more balls? That the other guy will repeatedly fail "the blood test?" That they've detected a hitch in the other guy's stroke? That they just don't care about the bet (or their backer's money)?

What makes a player go this way?
-- attack, attack, attack, and let the other guy either make the tough shot or sell out. Did DS just feel he could out shoot CG?

Lou Figueroa

Lou, let me try to answer some of your questions, of course from my perspective. Danny does believe he can out shoot Chris and Chris also believes it, however, at times it didn't look like he did but that all goes with the tricks your mind plays on a guy.

Danny played a super strong style of game and he played it beautifully, quite similar to the game Ronnie Allen once played. Danny moved balls and played distance, he moved balls in many different ways, kicking, power banks, and any other way he thought he would get positive movement from the balls. However, he did it wisely by controlling the cue ball, quite often playing it to the top rail, and he did that beautifully as well.

Chris found himself too often shooting from the top rail, that's not Chris's game. Danny actually had Chris playing his game and Chris wasn't comfortable playing it..that was obvious to me. Chris played a style he was unfamiliar with, and later in the match his mind started to play tricks on him.

Chris just couldn't change the speed of the game, he tried early in the match but imo he just couldn't, mainly because he wasn't productive from the top rail. Danny played a strong game strong, sorta like Ronnie Allen might of played it.

Chris played much better than many people think he did, he just ran into a strong player, playing a strong game..strong.

I'm not trying to "sugar coat" any thing, just the way I see it.

Bill Incardona

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

So, it's a fire fight. Toe to toe in the center of the ring, swing at will.

I believe that at one time or another we have all been involved in one of these.

But what is the psychology for a match turning into a game like this? Does one guy just believe they can out shoot the other guy? That they can run more balls? That the other guy will repeatedly fail "the blood test?" That they've detected a hitch in the other guy's stroke? That they just don't care about the bet (or their backer's money)?

What makes a player go this way? DS is not inventing a new style of 1pocket because we've all done it -- attack, attack, attack, and let the other guy either make the tough shot or sell out. Did DS just feel he could out shoot CG?

Lou Figueroa

Like in the movie the Hustler. Fast and loose. You ever have the feeling that you cannot miss? If Chris wants to have a chance to win. He has to out play the free wiling shooter. And the way you do that is to shut down his offense.

Don't let him breath and his game will change. Chris needs to play the game the way its suppose to be played. Forget the audience and how you look. Forget about shooting at every shot. And play the game to win. Then your opponent will feel the pressure. Change his style and stroke. By out moving him. Not by out shooting him and keeping him in stroke. Change your style. Don
t keep standing in the same spot.

Nobody likes to play someone who is trying to win every game and shot. The bottom line Chris did not play one pocket. He made enough mistakes. Where he put his opponent in a free wheeling gear. And he made too many mistakes. And gave Danny too many chances. Cut down your mistakes. And your game will get stronger and stronger as the game goes on.

Make your opponent start to think. If he misses or makes a mistake. He will not get another chance to win the game. A great shooter you have to take away his fire power. Just like a great banker. Don't give him no banks. If you want to win. That's exactly what you have to do.

Cut off there strength. And there game will change. Playing a offensive style. Helps your opponent. Be rested and prepared to play. Danny came to the game full of energy and ready to play. Physically Danny had a big edge over Chris. And it showed.

Two players playing each other. And one player is full of energy. Wanting to play and the other player is there just to go through the motions. Cannot win.Because he is not physically ready and prepared for the session. Chris gave up too big a edge to another great player. And if I was the backer. I would not have let Chris play. In the physical shape he was in.

Winning is not just about playing. Its about being ready and prepared too play. Chris did not have the energy or strength to win. Maybe next time he will take it more serious. Chris has the ability and knowledge to win. If he is ready and prepared to play. And work for the victory. Being ready and wanting to play is a big edge. Just my side of the way I seen the game.

 

[lfigueroa]

Hearns vs Hagler! Danny Smith can REALLY pocket balls. Chris made some creative shots and did some great runs. However, his shot selection was, in my opinion, too loose for Danny, who was also playing wide open. It was still see sawing when I got too tired and turned it off. He must have thought he could out run him. So much for my eveent pass.

It makes me wonder how their previous match went.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, let me try to answer some of your questions, of course from my perspective. Danny does believe he can out shoot Chris and Chris also believes it, however, at times it didn't look like he did but that all goes with the tricks your mind plays on a guy.

Danny played a super strong style of game and he played it beautifully, quite similar to the game Ronnie Allen once played. Danny moved balls and played distance, he moved balls in many different ways, kicking, power banks, and any other way he thought he would get positive movement from the balls. However, he did it wisely by controlling the cue ball, quite often playing it to the top rail, and he did that beautifully as well.

Chris found himself too often shooting from the top rail, that's not Chris's game. Danny actually had Chris playing his game and Chris wasn't comfortable playing it..that was obvious to me. Chris played a style he was unfamiliar with, and later in the match his mind started to play tricks on him.

Chris just couldn't change the speed of the game, he tried early in the match but imo he just couldn't, mainly because he wasn't productive from the top rail. Danny played a strong game strong, sorta like Ronnie Allen might of played it.

Chris played much better than many people think he did, he just ran into a strong player, playing a strong game..strong.

I'm not trying to "sugar coat" any thing, just the way I see it.

Bill Incardona

What I don't understand, Doctor Bill, is how DS got Chris to play a DS style of game, if that's what I'm hearing. It wasn't their first match up, so how did Chris get into a situation where he allowed the other player to out gunned him?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Like in the movie the Hustler. Fast and loose. You ever have the feeling that you cannot miss? If Chris wants to have a chance to win. He has to out play the free wiling shooter. And the way you do that is to shut down his offense.

Don't let him breath and his game will change. Chris needs to play the game the way its suppose to be played. Forget the audience and how you look. Forget about shooting at every shot. And play the game to win. Then your opponent will feel the pressure. Change his style and stroke. By out moving him. Not by out shooting him and keeping him in stroke. Change your style. Don
t keep standing in the same spot.

Nobody likes to play someone who is trying to win every game and shot. The bottom line Chris did not play one pocket. He made enough mistakes. Where he put his opponent in a free wheeling gear. And he made too many mistakes. And gave Danny too many chances. Cut down your mistakes. And your game will get stronger and stronger as the game goes on.

Make your opponent start to think. If he misses or makes a mistake. He will not get another chance to win the game. A great shooter you have to take away his fire power. Just like a great banker. Don't give him no banks. If you want to win. That's exactly what you have to do.

Cut off there strength. And there game will change. Playing a offensive style. Helps your opponent. Be rested and prepared to play. Danny came to the game full of energy and ready to play. Physically Danny had a big edge over Chris. And it showed.

Two players playing each other. And one player is full of energy. Wanting to play and the other player is there just to go through the motions. Cannot win.Because he is not physically ready and prepared for the session. Chris gave up too big a edge to another great player. And if I was the backer. I would not have let Chris play. In the physical shape he was in.

Winning is not just about playing. Its about being ready and prepared too play. Chris did not have the energy or strength to win. Maybe next time he will take it more serious. Chris has the ability and knowledge to win. If he is ready and prepared to play. And work for the victory. Being ready and wanting to play is a big edge. Just my side of the way I seen the game.

Artie, I think I understand what you're saying, which I believe boils down to this: Chris was not mentally and physically prepared for the match AND Chris did not force a strong enough defensive game that would have been to his favor.

As an example, I think you're suggesting that Chris could have hid and frozen the CB more than he did to limited DS' offensive opportunities.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Island Drive]

Rotation Games

Rotation Games

So, it's a fire fight. Toe to toe in the center of the ring, swing at will.

I believe that at one time or another we have all been involved in one of these.

But what is the psychology for a match turning into a game like this? Does one guy just believe they can out shoot the other guy? That they can run more balls? That the other guy will repeatedly fail "the blood test?" That they've detected a hitch in the other guy's stroke? That they just don't care about the bet (or their backer's money)?

What makes a player go this way? DS is not inventing a new style of 1pocket because we've all done it -- attack, attack, attack, and let the other guy either make the tough shot or sell out. Did DS just feel he could out shoot CG?

Lou Figueroa

I've played many head's up matches like this, but like I heard Lassiter say, years ago up front, I can only play 16 hours then I must go and sleep and I'll come back tomorrow and we can continue play. Being in perfect physical and mental shape for this type of match is Key. Also, when I've gotten into these type of marathon matches....w/o the white powder on my end, (not me) I was always in better shape or saw a weakness over time in my opponent , to cause me to make that game, and that's what I exploited. Wearing down Annagoni in the late seventies or Steve McAnnich was not an easy task, but my road work and the strength of my trunk, never allowed my mental game to diminish, I just always played better the longer I played....And loved the air in the pool rooms at sun-up, and how simplified the game and my thought process became after playing through the night.

 

[darmoose]

Like in the movie the Hustler. Fast and loose. You ever have the feeling that you cannot miss? If Chris wants to have a chance to win. He has to out play the free wiling shooter. And the way you do that is to shut down his offense.

Don't let him breath and his game will change. Chris needs to play the game the way its suppose to be played. Forget the audience and how you look. Forget about shooting at every shot. And play the game to win. Then your opponent will feel the pressure. Change his style and stroke. By out moving him. Not by out shooting him and keeping him in stroke. Change your style. Don
t keep standing in the same spot.

Nobody likes to play someone who is trying to win every game and shot. The bottom line Chris did not play one pocket. He made enough mistakes. Where he put his opponent in a free wheeling gear. And he made too many mistakes. And gave Danny too many chances. Cut down your mistakes. And your game will get stronger and stronger as the game goes on.

Make your opponent start to think. If he misses or makes a mistake. He will not get another chance to win the game. A great shooter you have to take away his fire power. Just like a great banker. Don't give him no banks. If you want to win. That's exactly what you have to do.

Cut off there strength. And there game will change. Playing a offensive style. Helps your opponent. Be rested and prepared to play. Danny came to the game full of energy and ready to play. Physically Danny had a big edge over Chris. And it showed.

Two players playing each other. And one player is full of energy. Wanting to play and the other player is there just to go through the motions. Cannot win.Because he is not physically ready and prepared for the session. Chris gave up too big a edge to another great player. And if I was the backer. I would not have let Chris play. In the physical shape he was in.

Winning is not just about playing. Its about being ready and prepared too play. Chris did not have the energy or strength to win. Maybe next time he will take it more serious. Chris has the ability and knowledge to win. If he is ready and prepared to play. And work for the victory. Being ready and wanting to play is a big edge. Just my side of the way I seen the game.

Artie

This is the most insightful and valuable post I have read on this site. I was very disappointed in Chris' play, which changed after several hours into the match. He actually built up a three game lead, and was poised to go to four ahead. But, he lost focus (maybe he got overconfident) and started going toe to toe with Danny. When it comes to shooting, CG is, was , and will probably always be the underdog to DS, and as such there was no need to play a "shootout", DS gets the cheese.

As is obvious from my signature line, I am not a shooter. I love and enjoy most the moving and defensive side of the game. If I could become a better shooter, I would, and I do try somewhat, but at 67 years old, it ain't gonna happen.

The beauty of one pocket over most other pool games, is the nuances and the ability for an underdog to overcome. In my poolroom there are several sharpshooters that play OP, but pay little attention to defense. My record against those types is very good, but it only happens when I maintain focus and do as you say, give him no AIR. And, you are absolutely correct that NOBODY likes to play someone who is trying to win every game. I have a few opponents who refuse to play only because they don't get to shoot enough (imagine that:lol:lol) They actually complain that the games take toooo looong, and they don't play enough games.

For those of us that aren't the best shooter in the room, one pocket has to be a war of minds and wits, of focus and patience. When you accomplish some level of success at this, OP is emensely gratifying and enjoyable and special. I imagine that playing OP as a sharpshooter is much like playing any other game.

Artie, thanks for making this very clear for those who will hear you.

 

[Henry]

Like in the movie the Hustler. Fast and loose. You ever have the feeling that you cannot miss? If Chris wants to have a chance to win. He has to out play the free wiling shooter. And the way you do that is to shut down his offense.

Don't let him breath and his game will change. Chris needs to play the game the way its suppose to be played. Forget the audience and how you look. Forget about shooting at every shot. And play the game to win. Then your opponent will feel the pressure. Change his style and stroke. By out moving him. Not by out shooting him and keeping him in stroke. Change your style. Don
t keep standing in the same spot.

Nobody likes to play someone who is trying to win every game and shot. The bottom line Chris did not play one pocket. He made enough mistakes. Where he put his opponent in a free wheeling gear. And he made too many mistakes. And gave Danny too many chances. Cut down your mistakes. And your game will get stronger and stronger as the game goes on.

Make your opponent start to think. If he misses or makes a mistake. He will not get another chance to win the game. A great shooter you have to take away his fire power. Just like a great banker. Don't give him no banks. If you want to win. That's exactly what you have to do.

Cut off there strength. And there game will change. Playing a offensive style. Helps your opponent. Be rested and prepared to play. Danny came to the game full of energy and ready to play. Physically Danny had a big edge over Chris. And it showed.

Two players playing each other. And one player is full of energy. Wanting to play and the other player is there just to go through the motions. Cannot win.Because he is not physically ready and prepared for the session. Chris gave up too big a edge to another great player. And if I was the backer. I would not have let Chris play. In the physical shape he was in.

Winning is not just about playing. Its about being ready and prepared too play. Chris did not have the energy or strength to win. Maybe next time he will take it more serious. Chris has the ability and knowledge to win. If he is ready and prepared to play. And work for the victory. Being ready and wanting to play is a big edge. Just my side of the way I seen the game.

I have to agree with Artie as I watched the match. I have watched all of the matches Danny Smith has played and no one has been able to play their game against him. I bet on Chris because I felt he was the better one pocket player and he was early and got 3 games ahead. I still think Chris is the better one pocket player and if he plays his game he should win. The real mystery is why do these seasoned money players totally break down playing Danny Smith. Chris did look tired but he always looks tired.

 

[FastEddieF.]

Old school is out.

Old school is out.

My thought is old school can't beat the real ball strikers today. Reyes is the exception. Bugs would shoot at any tough bank ,Ronnie Allen would shoot at any possible out shot,Artie played old school 50 years ago when he had a big advantage over ball strikers and would tie them up for hours, so the ball strikers became weak.Scott Frost is a great ball striker and knows old school too which makes him in the top 3 players today. Scott also likes shooting the tough shot. You must make the tough shot today are you can't win unless you're a better player anyway.I play old school today and will out move my opponent then I'll get the first shot and miss it so what good is old school if you can't get out. Your opponent gets a big advantage if you miss and you say to yourself I out moved him and I still can't win.Also the ball strikers today move pretty good too. I'm 72 and age means a lot ask Dr.Bill

 

[Island Drive]

My thought is old school can't beat the real ball strikers today. Reyes is the exception. Bugs would shoot at any tough bank ,Ronnie Allen would shoot at any possible out shot,Artie played old school 50 years ago when he had a big advantage over ball strikers and would tie them up for hours, so the ball strikers became weak.Scott Frost is a great ball striker and knows old school too which makes him in the top 3 players today. Scott also likes shooting the tough shot. You must make the tough shot today are you can't win unless you're a better player anyway.I play old school today and will out move my opponent then I'll get the first shot and miss it so what good is old school if you can't get out. Your opponent gets a big advantage if you miss and you say to yourself I out moved him and I still can't win.Also the ball strikers today move pretty good too. I'm 72 and age means a lot ask Dr.Bill

You nailed that one Eddie. I often hit shots that my opponents had no clue was even there, come for or 5 rails perfect, proper side of ball, close in and miss it. Just the way it is sometimes. Beat em to the ball, and not able to beat em. :frus

 

[BRLongArm]

Exactly, Billy. I hear these guys say, "You gotta play traditional one pocket to beat Danny down." When a guy is shooting tough two rail banks on you and freezing you on the top rail for six hours, that's tough to fade, no matter who you are. He might leave you a tough shot, but your options are these: Duck, or shoot a blood tester that gets you one ball and might sell out the game. The traditional one pocket says, "Duck". Which he does, but then he leaves Danny a bank into the stack, which develops the table for Danny and your cue ball is again on the Hudson. Now when you duck, you are trying to keep him off four shots instead of one or two. Then he shoots a combo bank and buries his cue ball. Now he has six balls near his hole and you have a eight foot shot straight in and you are on the rail...again. Rinse and repeat for 10 hours.

The end result is relentless pressure and positive development of the table so that when you make a mistake, he just runs out. That kind of pressure will crack most.

 

[wincardona]

Exactly, Billy. I hear these guys say, "You gotta play traditional one pocket to beat Danny down." When a guy is shooting tough two rail banks on you and freezing you on the top rail for six hours, that's tough to fade, no matter who you are. He might leave you a tough shot, but your options are these: Duck, or shoot a blood tester that gets you one ball and might sell out the game. The traditional one pocket says, "Duck". Which he does, but then he leaves Danny a bank into the stack, which develops the table for Danny and your cue ball is again on the Hudson. Now when you duck, you are trying to keep him off four shots instead of one or two. Then he shoots a combo bank and buries his cue ball. Now he has six balls near his hole and you have a eight foot shot straight in and you are on the rail...again. Rinse and repeat for 10 hours.

The end result is relentless pressure and positive development of the table so that when you make a mistake, he just runs out. That kind of pressure will crack most.

Excellent post!! Very astute observations, stop by more often.

Dr. Bill

 

[stedyfred]

DS is not an easy player for any one pocket player to ever feel real comfortable with when they are playing him. In this matchup he is younger, in better physical shape, a better ball striker as Dr. Bill pointed out, and far less predictable than CG in his shot selection. Both players appeared to me to be excellent bankers. I watched this match until approx. 1 a.m. E.S.T. At one point DS conceded a game to CG with a number of balls on the table, then proceeded to take a break, and came back and used a Corey Deull type break (despite if he made a ball on break the rules being played , I believe, required a rerack. Obviously DS was trying to pickup the pace of play and use his firepower to take control of the match. I do think that CG could have slowed his own pace considerably at this point and should have done so. DS apparently steamrolled him from here.

 

[u12armresl]

A few things I haven't seen mentioned.

The amount of money being thrown around is ludicrous.
If you can play for that kind of money, you aren't going to get rattled.

Danny is actually a more well rounded player than Chris is, and that shows up in banks, cuts, combos, While Chris I think is the better mover.

If you aren't scared and figure you're a 7/10 to make a ball, then you fire, run out, and gg.

 

[keoneyo]

Being on the west coast I havent seen too much of both players other than in films. I dont know their attitude or demeanor or approach. But the one thing I heard about Smith is that he has pedigree. Whenever my friends talk about him they always mention his dad as a good solid player. Whenever my Chicago friends talk about Gentile they say he is a smart gambler and great card player.

Like Shannon who had tutelage at an early age there came great things.
But a gambler who understands situations and probabilities is a tough contender.

I wonder if these things had any import to the competition.

 

[straightback]

I watched most of the match and am going to add my comments to this thread.

First off, I love Chris Gentile's style, his uncomplicated stroke and his overall table demeanor. However, the Chris Gentile I and everyone lese knows did not show up to play. In addition to missing many makeable shots very, very poorly, he was getting one and two ball runs where nearly ANYONE would have got more. In fact, a few of his position errors were so bad that even a C player would have pulled shape. Again, I am not denigrating his game, but that is what occurred.

Now, we've all been here, and we've all been playing against a guy who goes dumb. You know what happens when your opponent breaks weak - you play better. Eye of the tiger and all that. Now just imagine how the already carnivorous Danny Smith felt!

This was my first real good look at his game and I wholly underestimated his abilities. I watched him warm up at Derby and quite frankly I did not think his stroke technique (really long!) and back hand were capable of delivering consistently ball strikes. Boy, was I wrong! This man can play! [Having said that, what the **** was this guy thinking going up three games and then power breaking?!?]

What has been said before is so true - Danny took it to Chris with an all out offensive, taking great risks with sending balls at his hole but also reasonably controlling the cue ball so as not to leave anything close or easy. In effect, Danny Seemed to have made a decision, perhaps before the match, that he was going to gamble that his long shot ball striking was more accurate.

Whether it was being physically tired, as Artie suggested, or his body language, he did cast the suggestion of defeat and disgust. I have no doubt Danny picked up on this. I like Ralf Souquet's view on this - don't give your opponent a window into your mood. Efren does someting similar by merely "laughing off" a blunder or missed shot.

A few closing comments. One, if Chris wants his money back, he might do well to seek a table with smaller pockets. Two, Danny really impressed me and perhaps showed us a new style that incorporates offense, decent cue ball control, calculated risk-taking and defanging a mover. Three, all this could be bullshit and Chris just had a bad night.

 

[lfigueroa]

I've played many head's up matches like this, but like I heard Lassiter say, years ago up front, I can only play 16 hours then I must go and sleep and I'll come back tomorrow and we can continue play. Being in perfect physical and mental shape for this type of match is Key. Also, when I've gotten into these type of marathon matches....w/o the white powder on my end, (not me) I was always in better shape or saw a weakness over time in my opponent , to cause me to make that game, and that's what I exploited. Wearing down Annagoni in the late seventies or Steve McAnnich was not an easy task, but my road work and the strength of my trunk, never allowed my mental game to diminish, I just always played better the longer I played....And loved the air in the pool rooms at sun-up, and how simplified the game and my thought process became after playing through the night.

No doubt, managing yourself in terms of your mind being right, proper practice, sleep, eating, hydration, and physical stamina are areas oft over looked by some guys.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

My thought is old school can't beat the real ball strikers today. Reyes is the exception. Bugs would shoot at any tough bank ,Ronnie Allen would shoot at any possible out shot,Artie played old school 50 years ago when he had a big advantage over ball strikers and would tie them up for hours, so the ball strikers became weak.Scott Frost is a great ball striker and knows old school too which makes him in the top 3 players today. Scott also likes shooting the tough shot. You must make the tough shot today are you can't win unless you're a better player anyway.I play old school today and will out move my opponent then I'll get the first shot and miss it so what good is old school if you can't get out. Your opponent gets a big advantage if you miss and you say to yourself I out moved him and I still can't win.Also the ball strikers today move pretty good too. I'm 72 and age means a lot ask Dr.Bill

lol, I can commiserate with the part about out moving the other guy, beating them to the shot, and missing.

Lou Figueroa