Alex/shannon make it happen #2

[petie]

YOu mean like this?

I like this. Much better than trying to spin the ball up north. You maintain the bail out option like Bill notes.

 

[wincardona]

well alex did shoot it and made it....
(p,s, dr, bill i assumed you meant banking the thirteen as the 11 is the ball by the pocket)
good example of results dont make it right
big risk reward when he had 3 balls and was in position to get out of the break. since he made the bank he now has 4 balls
he left himself here
now what do you do
you are on a roll so
shoot the 12? or deal with the 11 now??

Sorry, double post.

 

[wincardona]

well alex did shoot it and made it....
(p,s, dr, bill i assumed you meant banking the thirteen as the 11 is the ball by the pocket)
good example of results dont make it right
big risk reward when he had 3 balls and was in position to get out of the break. since he made the bank he now has 4 balls
he left himself here
now what do you do
you are on a roll so
shoot the 12? or deal with the 11 now??

Alex now has 5 balls he started his run with the billiard on the 6ball, then followed with the 2ball and 10ball. He was then challenged with the bank on the 13ball and opted to shoot it and play position for the 12ball which he did. Alex played for the position for the 12ball so i'm 99% sure he's going to shoot it considering he is in reasonable line for the shot. However, if you notice how closely the cue ball is positioned in relation to the side rail, that to me would be somewhat of a deterrent to play position off the 12ball. I would be thinking that after pocketing the 12ball I would have 5 balls, successfully got away from an extremely threatening position off the break, and now in a position to win the game. Stealing games like this one where you've come from nowhere and then find yourself in a position to win are very rewarding, in many ways. With this understanding i'm not going to do anything foolish with the next shot to risk what I have accomplished, and turn the momentum back to my opponent, not going to happen.:sorry I'm cinching the 12ball and giving up the 11ball, and try to take care of business from there.

Dr. Bill

 

[Tom Wirth]

Alex now has 5 balls he started his run with the billiard on the 6ball, then followed with the 2ball and 10ball. He was then challenged with the bank on the 13ball and opted to shoot it and play position for the 12ball which he did. Alex played for the position for the 12ball so i'm 99% sure he's going to shoot it considering he is in reasonable line for the shot. However, if you notice how closely the cue ball is positioned in relation to the side rail, that to me would be somewhat of a deterrent to play position off the 12ball. I would be thinking that after pocketing the 12ball I would have 5 balls, successfully got away from an extremely threatening position off the break, and now in a position to win the game. Stealing games like this one where you've come from nowhere and then find yourself in a position to win are very rewarding, in many ways. With this understanding i'm not going to do anything foolish with the next shot to risk what I have accomplished, and turn the momentum back to my opponent, not going to happen.:sorry I'm cinching the 12ball and giving up the 11ball, and try to take care of business from there.

Dr. Bill

I hear ya Billy but you are like me and neither one of us would have made it to the point of having that shot to consider, would we? The Billiard, yes definitely. As far as banking that ball, that is where it gets iffy for me.

If I were I were beginning my inning from this position with a four ball lead I too would in all likelihood cinch the ball and play safe unless I felt I could pass the five cleanly for natural position on the seven. The shot I described of cutting the ball with left English and thin off the five for position on the combo was only in anticipation of what Alex will now attempt.

I think we all enjoy trying to not only figure out what we should do but also anticipate what the shooter will do as well. Mr. 3Cushion, Bill, I would like your shot better if the cue ball were further from the rail and the five a little closer to the ball we all think Alex will shoot (twelve or thirteen, whatever it is). It looks to me the natural hit on the five is pretty thin, if there at all, and I wouldn't dare try to draw off the five with inside English and hit it with the speed necessary to come around three rails. Way too much shot for my limited skills.

Tom

 

[NH Steve]

I hear ya Billy but you are like me and neither one of us would have made it to the point of having that shot to consider, would we? The Billiard, yes definitely. As far as banking that ball, that is where it gets iffy for me.

If I were I were beginning my inning from this position with a four ball lead I too would in all likelihood cinch the ball and play safe unless I felt I could pass the five cleanly for natural position on the seven. The shot I described of cutting the ball with left English and thin off the five for position on the combo was only in anticipation of what Alex will now attempt.

I think we all enjoy trying to not only figure out what we should do but also anticipate what the shooter will do as well. Mr. 3Cushion, Bill, I would like your shot better if the cue ball were further from the rail and the five a little closer to the ball we all think Alex will shoot (twelve or thirteen, whatever it is). It looks to me the natural hit on the five is pretty thin, if there at all, and I wouldn't dare try to draw off the five with inside English and hit it with the speed necessary to come around three rails. Way too much shot for my limited skills.

Tom

The inside english would deter me, not to mention the 5x10 table, the steep angle and the cue ball near the rail . But, one small correction -- Mr 3C said "2 o'clock" english" -- there's no bottom at 2 o'clock. I believe he is assuming the carom angle itself sends you sufficiently in the correct direction into the first long rail -- in other words, high inside english would do it.

This shot reminds me of the below the rack break shot in straight pool, way back in the 70's when that was how I learned pool

 

[mr3cushion]

The inside english would deter me, not to mention the 5x10 table, the steep angle and the cue ball near the rail . But, one small correction -- Mr 3C said "2 o'clock" english" -- there's no bottom at 2 o'clock. I believe he is assuming the carom angle itself sends you sufficiently in the correct direction into the first long rail -- in other words, high inside english would do it.

This shot reminds me of the below the rack break shot in straight pool, way back in the 70's when that was how I learned pool

When we start to talk about caroms off of balls and billiards,going 3 cushions or more, EVERYONE here is in MY classroom NOW! I don't mean to be so bold, but, it's just a fact, I see possibilities VERY differently than MOST of the members when it comes to certain, shots, angles, caroms, billiards, English, speeds, etc! This is what I'm trained to do!

The cue ball is what I do BEST, I might NOT pocket the ball all the time, but, I WILL put whitey where it needs to go! I'm used to applying English 90% of the time, inside, outside, it doesn't matter, I know how to AIM at the object ball with English! It also depends on the player's ability to do what they're trying to accomplish. I've NEVER been a player to try an do ONE thing at a time, ergo, playing position!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[wincardona]

The inside english would deter me, not to mention the 5x10 table, the steep angle and the cue ball near the rail . But, one small correction -- Mr 3C said "2 o'clock" english" -- there's no bottom at 2 o'clock. I believe he is assuming the carom angle itself sends you sufficiently in the correct direction into the first long rail -- in other words, high inside english would do it.

This shot reminds me of the below the rack break shot in straight pool, way back in the 70's when that was how I learned pool

Can't get anything by you, however, playing shape using 2 oclock english with the speed to reach a small target area is not advisable under the conditions set here. Not to mention the importance of 'finishing well' what you so 'profeciently' have managed to do to get this far..

Dr. Bill

 

[mr3cushion]

Can't get anything by you, however, playing shape using 2 oclock english with the speed to reach a small target area is not advisable under the conditions set here. Not to mention the importance of 'finishing well' what you so 'profeciently' have managed to do to get this far..

Dr. Bill

Billy; According to the snapshot, the angle looks PERFECT to me, it's , "Natural Short Angle" across the table!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[Tom Wirth]

The inside english would deter me, not to mention the 5x10 table, the steep angle and the cue ball near the rail . But, one small correction -- Mr 3C said "2 o'clock" english" -- there's no bottom at 2 o'clock. I believe he is assuming the carom angle itself sends you sufficiently in the correct direction into the first long rail -- in other words, high inside english would do it. This is where I disagree with Bill. I think the hit is too thin for 2 O'clock English to pick up the bottom rail. But then he is the billiard player so I must give him his due. He could very well be right.
This shot reminds me of the below the rack break shot in straight pool, way back in the 70's when that was how I learned pool

You are right about that Steve. I was reminded of that shot too. That shot is used when there is no other escape from the bottom of the stack. In the case of a straight pool shot where you can come off the far corner of the stack outside English is used to travel one rail and spin to the middle of the table. Here it appears easier to play thin off the bottom third of the obstructing ball and spin using outside English and across for the combination. In addition, this shot does not require precise speed control to acquire adequate position. Of course if the hit as Bill suggests is too full to do that then I would just settle for the single ball and play safe. Again that inside English with speed on a five by ten is asking a lot from my game.

Tom

 

[wincardona]

Billy; According to the snapshot, the angle looks PERFECT to me, it's , "Natural Short Angle" across the table!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

"Natural short angle" may be natural for you and possibly other players that have the clear understanding in depicting position shots of this kind (multiple rails ,english) but for me I have always found shots like this one to be more of a challenge as opposed to something that was easy to execute. Bill, in no way am I being sarcastic with what I implied. I truly understand that you excel in this area and can only wish that shots of this kind came as easily to me as they do to you. However, I still feel that at this time (in regard to Alex) you're better off cinching the 12ball and walking away feeling good about your performance.

Dr. Bill

 

[petie]

Alex now has 5 balls he started his run with the billiard on the 6ball, then followed with the 2ball and 10ball. He was then challenged with the bank on the 13ball and opted to shoot it and play position for the 12ball which he did. Alex played for the position for the 12ball so i'm 99% sure he's going to shoot it considering he is in reasonable line for the shot. However, if you notice how closely the cue ball is positioned in relation to the side rail, that to me would be somewhat of a deterrent to play position off the 12ball. I would be thinking that after pocketing the 12ball I would have 5 balls, successfully got away from an extremely threatening position off the break, and now in a position to win the game. Stealing games like this one where you've come from nowhere and then find yourself in a position to win are very rewarding, in many ways. With this understanding i'm not going to do anything foolish with the next shot to risk what I have accomplished, and turn the momentum back to my opponent, not going to happen.:sorry I'm cinching the 12ball and giving up the 11ball, and try to take care of business from there.

Dr. Bill

I know what you're saying Dr. Bill. It seems that many times we get our nose open when we shoot offensively and we would do well to be able to duck just one shot before we miss or leave ourselves in a trap. I know this is true of me.

 

[petie]

I'm not trying to suck up or be sycophantic but it seems to me that we are extremely fortunate to have the cadre of exceptional players with diverse and profound knowledge and experience to teach us. The shot suggested by 3C Bill is an example but look at the depth of the field here. I hope that if any neophytes are lurking, they appreciate what a resource this website is.

 

[bstroud]

At this point I am moving the 11 ball.

Bill S.

 

[lll]

At this point I am moving the 11 ball.

Bill S.

a voice of reason...
alex should have listened.....
alex went for the shot and missed it
he left shannon like this

 

[lll]

shannon tried to tiki the 14 off the 11 and hung it up
even he cant beleive he missed it.........:frus

 

[lll]

alex and shannon over several innings traded misses on balls you would think they would make and finally alex won

i can maybe be ok with the bank for someone of alexs level but the cut on the 12/13?? for me was a CMON MAN ...you were in a very bad situation
got out of it
you have 4 balls
get that 11 out of there and play on
jmho

 

[Tom Wirth]

alex and shannon over several innings traded misses on balls you would think they would make and finally alex won

i can maybe be ok with the bank for someone of alexs level but the cut on the 12/13?? for me was a CMON MAN ...you were in a very bad situation
got out of it
you have 4 balls
get that 11 out of there and play on
jmho

Success can be a two edged sword, Larry. The more you get the more you want. Alex made the billiard, a couple more shots, then the bank to get on the cut shot. He saw himself pocketing that shot and getting on the combination and running out. Great shot makers rarely entertain the possibility of missing shots like that cut shot. And there in lies the price of confidence.

Tom

 

[NH Steve]

You are right about that Steve. I was reminded of that shot too. That shot is used when there is no other escape from the bottom of the stack. In the case of a straight pool shot where you can come off the far corner of the stack outside English is used to travel one rail and spin to the middle of the table. Here it appears easier to play thin off the bottom third of the obstructing ball and spin using outside English and across for the combination. In addition, this shot does not require precise speed control to acquire adequate position. Of course if the hit as Bill suggests is too full to do that then I would just settle for the single ball and play safe. Again that inside English with speed on a five by ten is asking a lot from my game.

Tom

And if I recall correctly, one of the reasons for playing the three rail position below the pile (on the straight pool break shot) was to avoid scratching cross side if you go above the stack (with outside english). That applies here, too, besides the fact that if you go too far, or not far enough (using outside english above the stack), in this case you could lose your direct escape of giving Shannon the 11, whereas if you stay below that is not a problem. All in all, that's why I play chicken and remove the ll-ball while I can -- in fact now Alex does not even have to give Shannon the ll-ball -- he can knock it away safely and still control the cue ball. That's my choice.

 

[Tom Wirth]

And if I recall correctly, one of the reasons for playing the three rail position below the pile (on the straight pool break shot) was to avoid scratching cross side if you go above the stack (with outside english). That applies here, too, besides the fact that if you go too far, or not far enough (using outside english above the stack), in this case you could lose your direct escape of giving Shannon the 11, whereas if you stay below that is not a problem. All in all, that's why I play chicken and remove the ll-ball while I can -- in fact now Alex does not even have to give Shannon the ll-ball -- he can knock it away safely and still control the cue ball. That's my choice.

Right you are, Steve. Alex could easily take the eleven out safely but he is on total "go" from here. Once he banked that ball with the intention of getting on the twelve he was looking to go all the way with it. He obviously felt that if he is going to shoot the twelve then why stop there. Play position on another shot as well. It is a pretty natural angle using left hand English. I am rather surprised he missed it. Safety was not even a consideration in his mind.

As I said earlier, I would not have gotten to the point where I would have to make the decision to shoot or not shoot this shot.

Tom

 

[wincardona]

And if I recall correctly, one of the reasons for playing the three rail position below the pile (on the straight pool break shot) was to avoid scratching cross side if you go above the stack (with outside english). That applies here, too, besides the fact that if you go too far, or not far enough (using outside english above the stack), in this case you could lose your direct escape of giving Shannon the 11, whereas if you stay below that is not a problem. All in all, that's why I play chicken and remove the ll-ball while I can -- in fact now Alex does not even have to give Shannon the ll-ball -- he can knock it away safely and still control the cue ball. That's my choice.

I totally understand how you feel, particularly the part about taking out the 11ball with no risk or penalty. Plus when you take out the 11ball you can also move balls away from Shannon's side. I like that shot better than "cinching the 12ball and dealing with the 11ball from where ever you end up with the cue ball. Your intention with that shot would be to amass a 5 to possibly 1 score if you give up the 11ball after pocketing the 12ball Now lets look at what happens if you opt to take out the 11ball. By taking out the 11ball you're you're shooting a risk free shot that will possibly take out a couple balls from Shannons side and end up with a 4 to 0 edge in the ball count. Too me that's the best shot by much. Especially for a "B" player and below.

Good call Steve.

Dr. Bill