9 Ball: One Foul BIH vs. Push-Out

[Cowboy Dennis]

Since all of you are about as boring as can be today (and should be shot) I'll post this in the open forum, so all you hoopleheads can see it.

Given a choice between 1 foul BIH (Texas Express) 9 Ball and Push-Out (any two fouls BIH, everything spots up on a foul) which would you say favors the better player?

Believe it or not, there are some experienced players who would argue the point.

Dennis

 

[Frank Almanza]

I think you need to also add into this "two fouls by the same person, bih". This adds an other dimension to the game.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I think you need to also add into this "two fouls by the same person, bih". This adds an other dimension to the game.

It is my opinion that both "two-foul" games are superior to the "one-foul" game so the only distinction to me would be which of the "two-foul" games is best over the other.

P.S. After I started playing 9-Ball, I learned the difference between Any 2-Fouls and 2 by the same player and I never played 2 by the same player again, with one important & noteworthy(and valuable) exception.

Dennis

 

[wincardona]

I feel that Texas Express rules favor the better player by far. Much more demanding game in terms of not only playing the cue ball but also using discretion on safeties (when to and not to play them)Plus there are many more difficult shots that need to be executed playing one foul. Not to mention the added pressure in performing. T.E. puts more pressure on the players because ...innings at the table are more crucial. In "push out" you can afford to make cue ball errors, unlike T.E. However, "push out" favors the better shot maker and banker because you can take more chances with your offense while lessening the risk with cue ball errors. Just my opinion.

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Since all of you are about as boring as can be today (and should be shot) I'll post this in the open forum, so all you hoopleheads can see it.

Given a choice between 1 foul BIH (Texas Express) 9 Ball and Push-Out (any two fouls BIH, everything spots up on a foul) which would you say favors the better player?

Believe it or not, there are some experienced players who would argue the point.

Dennis

It is my opinion that both "two-foul" games are superior to the "one-foul" game so the only distinction to me would be which of the "two-foul" games is best over the other.

P.S. After I started playing 9-Ball, I learned the difference between Any 2-Fouls and 2 by the same player and I never played 2 by the same player again, with one important & noteworthy(and valuable) exception.

Dennis

Well, for the same reasons stated in post #1 I will resurrect this thread. It seems that at least two shortstops on the All-Zaniness site agree with me.

The All-Zaniness thread was started by a person discussing this article: http://www.insidepool.com/article340.html

Playing two-shot/roll-out back in the day, you could roll out, and the player would have the option either to take the shot or not. If he gave me the shot back, if I missed the whole ball, he would have the option to make me shoot it again or he could take the shot himself.

Now if I missed it again, if I missed the ball or scratched, the other player would have ball in hand. But with the any-two foul rule, he could roll out, and I could roll out behind him. And if he made a foul or I made a foul, it would be ball in hand.

In other words, there was two ways to play that. You could play two fouls by the same player, which we did back in the day, or any two fouls. It's different than just playing any two fouls.

Not many people, when you rolled out, would come back and roll out behind you. I did it, because sometimes it was a chess match, but there was a lot of times, my opponent would roll out and I would roll out to a shot that I felt that I could execute and he couldn't, whether I made it or missed it. There was a lot of times you would roll out, and if you missed the ball, you were playing a safety behind it. There was a lot of strategy to that.

When they changed the rules to this one-foul/ball-in-hand B.S. and the red circle cueball, my game went down to the 7-ball. It took a lot of your offensive arsenal and threw it in the sh*t can. It's a shame a guy can make easy mistake, kiss off a titty, kiss off another ball, and when you look up, you just got hit with a 4-pack. He gets rewarded for making an easy mistake.

THANKS KEITH, YOU NAILED IT!!!

Wow, I'd never read this before, I 100% agree with Keith and that's how we ALL gambled when I was growing up. The ROLLOUT game is TEN times better as as far as stategy, shot-making, and "two way shots" than "One Foul".

The game of 9 Ball NEVER had to be changed if the correct rules were in place and the break/rack was addressed correctly.

Ten Ball is just a cheap fix, it's certainly not a better game than 9 Ball. Instead of fixing the rules and addressing the problems they just added another ball???

Am I in the Twilight Zone or what is the deal?

You can now return to your boring discussions of where you live, how stubborn you are, who's president and whatever the hell else you talk about.

RBL

 

[Island Drive]

Two shot allows a player to agressively break up clusters and master the overcut/free shot.

 

[beatle]

the weaker player or better mover should opt for push out.
if gambling pick which is best for you. if playing a runout player do shootout and get the appropriate weight.
only time you are playing someone better than you without weight is in a tournament. and that is a folly as the top few players take almost all the money out of them.
probably why tournament pool is dying. where league is doing well.

 

[tylerdurden]

The more I thought about nine ball, the more I realized it really is the easiest game in the world to upset a better player. People may not agree with that, because they see all the best players in the finals, but I would argue that is because of players being weak in their heads. It is just so "easy" to lose to a better player. If there was money in pool, I know I'd be proven right, as players would just be more motivated to get head strong. That is all that is required imo; the talent is out there for upset after upset in a game like 9 ball, with the way the corner ball reacts. We don't see it simply because people get googly eyed, and there is really no mental discipline in pool, let's face it.

I know strong short-stops would can put down 5 packs on a tight table no problem rack your own. People are telling me there should not be a TON more upsets in pool? I will never agree with that, especially races to 9 or 11.

Now, to the point, considering the above.... I think texas express much favors the weaker player, and it is because running out playing 9 ball is damn simple. It really is - just players are weak in the head so they dog it. So, I finally disagree with Billy. Ha. My odds aren't good in doing so, but that is still what I believe. I think if you took a total monster player who was playing heads and shoulders above everybody, the better game for him would be push out. That is because he could intentionally position himself to do things others could not, whereas texas express is more of a crap shoot on who gets the first shot, and every player worth a damn can run 7 or 8 balls and packages behind it (esp rack your own).

 

[Island Drive]

During the earlier disciplines of 14.1....9 ball was introduced by a hustler to get more action (novel idea) he/she/they...wanted to have a game appear easy and lucky to lure suckers in. When full table board play comes into effect, some players are Extremely adept at getting to the ball first, better yet, getting ''BIH'' first. I was always impressed when watching Lassiter do 14.1 board play with the stack still in one Chunk during my college yrs @SIU. It was a Very interesting aspect of play to watch on a High level when your 20 yr. old and ya just saw this kid Cole Dixon swing thru campus....Wimpy would rather scratch 3 in a row and do a rerack than let his opponent have a shot, Any shot.

 

[petie]

Well, for the same reasons stated in post #1 I will resurrect this thread. It seems that at least two shortstops on the All-Zaniness site agree with me.

The All-Zaniness thread was started by a person discussing this article: http://www.insidepool.com/article340.html







You can now return to your boring discussions of where you live, how stubborn you are, who's president and whatever the hell else you talk about.

RBL

You have no sense of humor.

 

[androd]

Texas Express is a slop game that favors the better player.
Any two fouls gives you a better chance to protect your self.
Two by the same player can be played two consecutive fouls
OR two fouls with the other player fouling in between.
Played them all, like any two best, as I wasn't usually the best player.
Rod

 

[Island Drive]

Texas Express is a slop game that favors the better player.
Any two fouls gives you a better chance to protect your self.
Two by the same player can be played two consecutive fouls
OR two fouls with the other player fouling in between.
Played them all, like any two best, as I wasn't usually the best player.
Rod

Was poetry in motion, watching great players in 2 shot get lock up safe's and get two in a row for BIH, or a Game win with 3 in a row.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Was poetry in motion, watching great players in 2 shot get lock up safe's and get two in a row for BIH, or a Game win with 3 in a row.

BIH was awarded after two fouls, there was no three in a row.

BIH's were also not seen as often as today. How hard was it to not foul the second time?

 

[Tom Wirth]

Anytime one player is matched up with a weaker player the better player will have the best of it regardless of the luck factor which is far more prevalent in the Texas Express format than it is in either of the other two rollout formats . In a match where the winner of a single game now has the break in the following game luck can quickly become a deciding factor in a match between two players capable of stringing several games together. That being said the better player still is the better player and must be considered the favorite. The push out format I believe gives the better player a far greater advantage simply because the luck factor has been diminished substantially.

If the game is to be truly cleaned up some form of the Grady Mathews rules should be implemented. Call a safety and the incoming player must make a good hit; miss your shot and the incoming player can roll out, or it could be played where the incoming player can give the shot back to the shooter.

In my opinion Texas express is greatly responsible for One Pocket to have become so popular over the past twenty or so years amongst top players. There is so much more control over your own destiny.

Tom

 

[androd]

If the game is to be truly cleaned up some form of the Grady Mathews rules should be implemented. Call a safety and the incoming player must make a good hit; miss your shot and the incoming player can roll out, or it could be played where the incoming player can give the shot back to the shooter.


Tom

I rarely play anymore, when I play you may roll out before the first ball is pocketed after the break. After that any time you don't pocket the ball you're shooting the opponent gets ball in hand. None of those sissy safeties for me.
A lot more pressure here than you'd think.
Rod.
P.S. This would speed it up for tourney venues and TV also.

 

[Tom Wirth]

I rarely play anymore, when I play you may roll out before the first ball is pocketed after the break. After that any time you don't pocket the ball you're shooting the opponent gets ball in hand. None of those sissy safeties for me.
A lot more pressure here than you'd think.
Rod.
P.S. This would speed it up for tourney venues and TV also.

Yes Rod, total offense is a good way to play and it certainly speeds up the game. However, for my liking, and having grown up playing One Pocket almost exclusively, I want the option to play some defense when I feel the need. Maybe if I can't out shoot my opponent hopefully I can out think him.

Tom

 

[wincardona]

To me there is a clear advantage for the better player playing Tex express as opposed to roll out. I played Richie Ambrose roll out in Las Vegas in the 70's and and narrowly beat him. I was the better player but the roll out rule allowed him to push out for his favorite shot (a spin cut length of the table shot) which he executed as well as anyone. After watching him cut this shot in with great consistency I decided to take the push out and either play safe off of it or spin it in myself. I had to develop an understanding of how to defend myself in situations like the one I just described playing roll out, but playing one foul Tex Exp there was no favorite shot that a player could design if he got in trouble, he had to play what he earned and that was that. I later played Richie in his home pool room in Det. "Mr 9 Ball" we played Tex Exp and I beat him easily. The same thing happened when I played Doug Smith in Tex about 7 years ago, except he beat me playing roll out. We switched the game to Tex Exp and I beat him easily because I was a better player (all around) and by playing Tex Exp I took away the bank shot that he kept pushing out for after he played himself out of line.

Roll out allows a player to get a second chance when he commits an error in position play, and to me that's not favoring the better player. Plus there is much more pressure playing Tex Exp when players realize that they don't have another chance if they error with playing position. I've always understood when playing all sports that when you commit an error there is always a consequent for committing the error, However, in roll out you simply roll out to your pet shot.:frus

Better players kick better than other players and play safeties better than other players, both which require a certain skill to execute. Playing roll out neither kicking or safety play is as beneficial to the better player playing roll out, simply because his opponent will just roll out to his pet shot as opposed to having to kick or play a low percentage shot that his opponent has earned through his ability with the execution of the defensive shot. :frus

Dr. Bill

 

[androd]

To me there is a clear advantage for the better player playing Tex express as opposed to roll out. I played Richie Ambrose roll out in Las Vegas in the 70's and and narrowly beat him. I was the better player but the roll out rule allowed him to push out for his favorite shot (a spin cut length of the table shot) which he executed as well as anyone. After watching him cut this shot in with great consistency I decided to take the push out and either play safe off of it or spin it in myself. I had to develop an understanding of how to defend myself in situations like the one I just described playing roll out, but playing one foul Tex Exp there was no favorite shot that a player could design if he got in trouble, he had to play what he earned and that was that. I later played Richie in his home pool room in Det. "Mr 9 Ball" we played Tex Exp and I beat him easily. The same thing happened when I played Doug Smith in Tex about 7 years ago, except he beat me playing roll out. We switched the game to Tex Exp and I beat him easily because I was a better player (all around) and by playing Tex Exp I took away the bank shot that he kept pushing out for after he played himself out of line.

Roll out allows a player to get a second chance when he commits an error in position play, and to me that's not favoring the better player. Plus there is much more pressure playing Tex Exp when players realize that they don't have another chance if they error with playing position. I've always understood when playing all sports that when you commit an error there is always a consequent for committing the error, However, in roll out you simply roll out to your pet shot.:frus

Better players kick better than other players and play safeties better than other players, both which require a certain skill to execute. Playing roll out neither kicking or safety play is as beneficial to the better player playing roll out, simply because his opponent will just roll out to his pet shot as opposed to having to kick or play a low percentage shot that his opponent has earned through his ability with the execution of the defensive shot. :frus

Dr. Bill

As my Asian friend would say" Ed Zachery collect"
Rod.

 

[bstroud]

The main thing I dislike about Tex Express is the fact that your opponent can make a position error and can then snooker you to get ball in hand. I think he should be punished for his mistake.

The other thing I don't like is that you can be beating a player and have him demoralized and if he gets ball in hand a couple of times, he gets his courage back.

Stupid rules.

Bill S.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

The main thing I dislike about Tex Express is the fact that your opponent can make a position error and can then snooker you to get ball in hand. I think he should be punished for his mistake.

The other thing I don't like is that you can be beating a player and have him demoralized and if he gets ball in hand a couple of times, he gets his courage back.

Stupid rules.

Bill S.

And if those things aren't bad enough they often PLAY position for a hook. That's not 9-Ball to me, if they want to play defense let 'em learn one-pocket. 9-Ball is an offensive, ball-pocketing game. It should have stayed that way.

Dennis