S. Daulton vs. R. Saez 2012 D.C.C.

[fred bentivegna]

Can't believe you called him a babe... maybe he'll take it as a compliment.


Freddy, if you will, tell me why you like the four railer better than two in the side. Thanks.

Good question. You must first visualize all the possible results of both shots. Plus in this case you must visualize the results of a 2 in the corner attempt.
You first start with the speed required to draw the cue ball 4 diamonds back to the head rail. Now you insert that speed into all 3 shots you are considering. 2 in the side, 2 in the corner and 4 in the side.

You will first notice that applying that draw speed to a 2 in the side will cause the object ball to travel much too fast to control properly. Unless you make it or hit the point of the side, the object ball is going to be somewhere down table and close to the cue ball. Not safe.

The 2 in the corner is a better option than the 2 in the side because you need to apply more speed to the 2inthecorner because the object ball has to travel further anyway. The downside is if you under hit it speed wise the object ball will stay on the wrong side of the table (near head rail), or worse yet, bobble in the corner and leave a cross side or cross corner. Possibly safe. The angle is running a little long also, so you need to put some "shortening" on the cue ball.

The 4 in the side is the nuts, because the angle is right on anyway, to hit the long rail on the 3rd cushion. You can put a full draw on the cue ball. Since you need plenty of speed to get the 4 cushions, there is no speed control issue. Hit it hard. The direction off of the final cushion is AWAY from the cue ball and headed into the correct direction, which is uptable to the foot rail. If you miss, the object ball runs back up table safe.

The only possible bad thing that can happen is if you totally blast the shot and off of the 4th rail the object ball slams into the titty of the side pocket and returns back toward the head rail. You need to really crush the shot to do that. Very unlikely. Difficult shot to make, but mostly all upsides.

Beard

 

[fred bentivegna]

I never even saw that shot as a possibility. But what are you going to do with the cue ball? And why shoot a trick shot when you're ahead 3-1? It looks to me like if the 6 didn't go, which it probably wouldn't, there's a good chance of selling out a return straight-back or cross-side.

Are you sure you're not just being kind to Pittsburgh Billy because he was mindful of even mentioning that shot?

Doc

Not hardly. Right is right. Refer to my post #21 for a definitive explanation of the value of the 4 in the side.

Beard

 

[fred bentivegna]

On further review I have to concede that the 4 in the side is too tough a shot considering the depth and angle shown with the shot.. The angle demands a hard hit with a fairly deep cut that needs to be hit accurately, a little too much to ask even though the design of the shot is a good one. But I still believe the two in the corner is the right shot, much easier hit, based off of the speed needed to succeed with the shot is more controllable, bottom line.

For the 4 in the side to be the better option you would need a straighter angle and a little closer shot. It's much easier and predictable to control the cue ball when you need speed with the shot, to be shooting at a straighter angle. With a straighter angle the speed needed to execute the shot is much less[/B because you are going into the meat of the ball which will transfer more speed with the object ball. Less velocity, easier hit, more controllable.

I promise I won't change my mind again.:sorry

Dr. Bill

For such a short time there you flirted with being correct. Unfortunately, that experience didnt last very long.:sorry

The four in the side is a dead on angle. Refer to my book please for these 4 in the side systems. You might learn something.:lol
Beard

Here is what they call "evidence." Page 144 of Banking With the Beard.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Admittedly the four rails in the side would be beautiful shot to see made-- a real crowd pleaser. Of course the average decent player is not even going to see the possibility of the shot. And in this layout the shot would naturally need to be hit hard, not "firm", as in your book, due to the leave.

But if the shot is missed too short, or not quite long enough (5 rail speed), then there will be a makeable shot left for the opponent. The shot itself may not be that difficult for one who has practiced it, but it's a poor choice for the average player. One can't shoot a shot simply because it's "on line" to the pocket.

Doc

 

[fred bentivegna]

Admittedly the four rails in the side would be beautiful shot to see made-- a real crowd pleaser. Of course the average decent player is not even going to see the possibility of the shot. The average decent player who doesnt have the advantage of my help on this bank forum. And in this layout the shot would naturally need to be hit hard, not "firm", as in your book, due to the leave.

But if the shot is missed too short, or not quite long enough (5 rail speed), then there will be a makeable shot left for the opponent. The shot itself may not be that difficult for one who has practiced it, but it's a poor choice for the average player. One can't shoot a shot simply because it's "on line" to the pocket.

Doc

Doc, Doc, no wonder Col Bille is pounding on you. What is the shot that you are going to leave? The cue ball is going to be on the head rail. The object ball is traveling up and away from the cue ball off of the 4th rail. As is indicated in the diagram, all you have to do it hit it in the face and draw your ball-- and hit it with speed. If you cant hit it hard enough to do that, then this bank forum is much too advanced for anyone with that low of a skill level.:sorry


Beard

 

[wincardona]

For such a short time there you flirted with being correct. Unfortunately, that experience didnt last very long.:sorry

The four in the side is a dead on angle. Refer to my book please for these 4 in the side systems. You might learn something.:lol
Beard

Here is what they call "evidence." Page 144 of Banking With the Beard.

I'm not questioning your understanding of angles, and the kind of angles that are conducive to play certain shots, but what is in question is our understanding of how the balls are actually positioned. I'm certain that the way I see the balls positioned that you need to cut the 6 ball quite a bit to the right in order for the shot to be executed correctly. If i'm correct then you'll have to hit the shot with more speed to execute the shot the way it needs to be executed, and when you need to do that, that's when you start running into problems such as controlling the cue ball, and also the object ball. In addition to that, on this particular shot, once again if i'm correct about needing to cut the 6 ball because of the angle offered, the cue ball will go directly to the left side rail and then toward the bottom rail in the direction of the bottom right pocket (about a diamond short of the pocket) which increases the possibility of the balls running into one another. Below is an insert that I took from my post #20, in case you didn't read it.



For the 4 in the side to be the better option you would need a straighter angle and a little closer shot. It's much easier and predictable to control the cue ball when you need speed with the shot, to be shooting at a straighter angle. With a straighter angle the speed needed to execute the shot is much less[/B because you are going into the meat of the ball which will transfer more speed with the object ball. Less velocity, easier hit, more controllable.


Now I do have a very good understanding of the angle needed to make this shot a viable option, and like I said..the way I see this shot...the angle isn't there. So what we have here is not a difference in understanding the playability of the shot, but a difference in how we see the angle.

Oh by the way i'm almost certain that i'm correct about how the balls are positioned.
Whenever we differ i'm right about 92% of the time, in case you haven't noticed. I'm a percentage man.

Dr. Bill

 

[androd]

If you're not going to play safe, why not bank the 6 ball 1 rail ?
Rod.
P.S. Doesn't look that tough.

 

[wincardona]

If you're not going to play safe, why not bank the 6 ball 1 rail ?
Rod.
P.S. Doesn't look that tough.

The reason for not banking the 6 ball 1 rail is the risk of the 6 ball doubling the corners of the intended pocket and leaving a return bank. From the angle shown it's too tough of an angle to gamble with the shot. I believe that if you shoot this shot you will sell out just about as many times as you will pocket the bank, considering the score at 3 -1 in your favor it's not a good gamble. If i'm correct about the risk, then i'm sure you'll agree with the bad gamble part.

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Your guess is as good as mine as to what Saez intended here but he banked the 9 into the 5 and almost drew the cueball in to the side.

 

[wincardona]

Your guess is as good as mine as to what Saez intended here but he banked the 9 into the 5 and almost drew the cueball in to the side.

View attachment 6441

Saez is one of the players that Freddie challenged with his, "i'm the best thinker mover" in the game challenge in Cincinatti.

Does that help you with understanding what he was shooting?

Dr. Bill

 

[fred bentivegna]

Saez is one of the players that Freddie challenged with his, "i'm the best thinker mover" in the game challenge in Cincinatti.

Does that help you with understanding what he was shooting?

Dr. Bill

Also present in the room at the time was Shannon Dalton, Chris Gentile, John Brumback, Truman Hogue, Gabe Owen, etc., etc.,

Beard

Oh yeah, and Dr Bill. Almost forgot.

 

[fred bentivegna]

I hate to have to do this again, but due to the fact that once I see one of these diagrams and if it isnt repeated visually throughout the thread, I kind of lose track of the original position.

Sorry to have to say this, but after going back to post #1 and looking at the diagram again, I retract my 4 in the side. It does have to be cut. For some ridiculous reason I thought the angle was dead on. However, I wouldnt shoot 2 in the side, straight back or 2 in the corner either.

Beard

I will stick to my original safety however, and that is to cut the 6 in the side and head down table. I might need a tip of rt english, wouldnt matter, shoot it anyway.

 

[oldspurguy]

Good question. You must first visualize all the possible results of both shots. Plus in this case you must visualize the results of a 2 in the corner attempt.
You first start with the speed required to draw the cue ball 4 diamonds back to the head rail. Now you insert that speed into all 3 shots you are considering. 2 in the side, 2 in the corner and 4 in the side.

You will first notice that applying that draw speed to a 2 in the side will cause the object ball to travel much too fast to control properly. Unless you make it or hit the point of the side, the object ball is going to be somewhere down table and close to the cue ball. Not safe.

The 2 in the corner is a better option than the 2 in the side because you need to apply more speed to the 2inthecorner because the object ball has to travel further anyway. The downside is if you under hit it speed wise the object ball will stay on the wrong side of the table (near head rail), or worse yet, bobble in the corner and leave a cross side or cross corner. Possibly safe. The angle is running a little long also, so you need to put some "shortening" on the cue ball.

The 4 in the side is the nuts, because the angle is right on anyway, to hit the long rail on the 3rd cushion. You can put a full draw on the cue ball. Since you need plenty of speed to get the 4 cushions, there is no speed control issue. Hit it hard. The direction off of the final cushion is AWAY from the cue ball and headed into the correct direction, which is uptable to the foot rail. If you miss, the object ball runs back up table safe.

The only possible bad thing that can happen is if you totally blast the shot and off of the 4th rail the object ball slams into the titty of the side pocket and returns back toward the head rail. You need to really crush the shot to do that. Very unlikely. Difficult shot to make, but mostly all upsides.

Beard

Very good Beard, I appreciate it.

 

[oldspurguy]

I'm not questioning your understanding of angles, and the kind of angles that are conducive to play certain shots, but what is in question is our understanding of how the balls are actually positioned. I'm certain that the way I see the balls positioned that you need to cut the 6 ball quite a bit to the right in order for the shot to be executed correctly. If i'm correct then you'll have to hit the shot with more speed to execute the shot the way it needs to be executed, and when you need to do that, that's when you start running into problems such as controlling the cue ball, and also the object ball. In addition to that, on this particular shot, once again if i'm correct about needing to cut the 6 ball because of the angle offered, the cue ball will go directly to the left side rail and then toward the bottom rail in the direction of the bottom right pocket (about a diamond short of the pocket) which increases the possibility of the balls running into one another. Below is an insert that I took from my post #20, in case you didn't read it.



For the 4 in the side to be the better option you would need a straighter angle and a little closer shot. It's much easier and predictable to control the cue ball when you need speed with the shot, to be shooting at a straighter angle. With a straighter angle the speed needed to execute the shot is much less[/B because you are going into the meat of the ball which will transfer more speed with the object ball. Less velocity, easier hit, more controllable.


Now I do have a very good understanding of the angle needed to make this shot a viable option, and like I said..the way I see this shot...the angle isn't there. So what we have here is not a difference in understanding the playability of the shot, but a difference in how we see the angle.

Oh by the way i'm almost certain that i'm correct about how the balls are positioned.
Whenever we differ i'm right about 92% of the time, in case you haven't noticed. I'm a percentage man.

Dr. Bill

OK Doc, but what about the two rails in the corner you suggest, wouldn't you have to cut that even more to the right? Or is that shot done by mostly changing the angle off the end rail with spin. Basically what I'm asking is how would you execute the two railer in the corner. Thanks.

 

[wincardona]

OK Doc, but what about the two rails in the corner you suggest, wouldn't you have to cut that even more to the right? Or is that shot done by mostly changing the angle off the end rail with spin. Basically what I'm asking is how would you execute the two railer in the corner. Thanks.

The two shots are very similar not much difference at all with the hit imo. The difference with the hit the way I shoot the shot is with two in the corner I favor drawing it with low inside 1/4 tip of inside, not much at all. But a big difference with the action of the object ball coming off the top rail. The 4 in the side is basically the same hit but I would prefer hitting that shot with low center as opposed to low right, plus I hit the 4 rail shot with a harder speed. The harder speed is what really makes the 4 rail shot play more difficult than the 2 in the corner.

I'm really not that familiar with the 4 in the side shot because I hardly ever have a need to play it, but since I have been experimenting with the shot I feel that the shot should be played with the same speed as the two rails in the corner shot. I know i'm contradicting myself but i'm learning more about the shot by speculating with it.

If this shot came up in a live game I would prefer playing the two in the corner, just because I would be more comfortable shooting a shot that i'm more familiar with.

The one thing that I have learned while shooting the two shots is to play it short. By playing it short you cut down on the bad things that could happen with the two shots, plus you have better control with the cue ball because of the lessened speed needed for the shot playing it short.

I hope that I have helped you understand a little more about these two shots, but like I mentioned i'm learning as I go with the 4 in the side shot.

Dr. Bill

 

[oldspurguy]

That's why you are a doctor. Thanks, I'm going to try these banks and see what results I have.

 

[John Brumback]

Also present in the room at the time was Shannon Dalton, Chris Gentile, John Brumback, Truman Hogue, Gabe Owen, etc., etc.,

Beard

Oh yeah, and Dr Bill. Almost forgot.[/quot

Sorry,Fred

 

[oldspurguy]

BTW John, how would you shoot that two railer in the corner?

Like my grandmother used to say, "Well I'll swanee."

 

[John Brumback]

BTW John, how would you shoot that two railer in the corner?

Like my grandmother used to say, "Well I'll swanee."

My 87 year old mother still says that.

There is no 2 in the corner here.If somebody held a gun to my head and made me shoot that shot I would hit it with alot of inside english,but no I would not shoot that shot in a million years.I might however shoot the free 5ball cross corner and tighten up the cball and three rail it back down table.My shot does require a good stroke though,with lots of low left. John B.

 

[oldspurguy]

Thanks for the reply John, and good luck in Tunica.