The "Scratch Angle"

[fred bentivegna]

Okay, then for you guys that like to play it with low right I have a question for you. Since that two-in-the-corner scratch is kind of a natural angle with that shot (or shots similar) and that low outside english, then which side of that far corner are you intending to go with the cue ball, so as not to scratch?

And for Freddy, with no english, how are you avoiding the scratch in the other far corner pocket?

I know you guys must "have a plan"

Pay attention, Steve. I believe I addressed that point completely in my post #9. I will repeat for those that missed it:

From the bank angle that is displayed, just using center axis follow with medium speed will negate enough of the acquired right hand english to send the cue ball to about the 1st diamond on the head rail and certainly beat the scratch.

Beard

I have gone over some of the pro's and con's of both options. Other considerations other than that the two railer requires more skill are these: If I want to cinch that ball (game ball, playing position, etc.) and control both balls, QB and OB, I would roll it with no english. If I wanted to make sure I either made it or hung it, I would also roll it with no english. However, If I wanted to insure the cue ball to end up on, or very close to the end rail, I would shoot Brumbooger's shot. I would be sacrificing a little accuracy for a stronger safety. Because the rolling, no english cue ball will be going straight into the bottom rail it is difficult to get the cue ball to land on or close to the rail. With the 2 rail shot the cue ball deadens coming off of the 2nd rail and can easily find a spot close to the end rail.

Bottom line: The difference between both options is very slight. Neither way is considerably better or much more "wrong" than the other. Either way is basically ok. It is just a good idea to understand the differences involved.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Okay, then for you guys that like to play it with low right I have a question for you. Since that two-in-the-corner scratch is kind of a natural angle with that shot (or shots similar) and that low outside english, then which side of that far corner are you intending to go with the cue ball, so as not to scratch?

And for Freddy, with no english, how are you avoiding the scratch in the other far corner pocket?

I know you guys must "have a plan"

I would shoot it the same way CatfishBreath would shoot it (but I'd make it). The reason the cueball came this close to scratching for Pinegar is that the new cloth let the cueball slide off the second rail instead of grabbing. That opened up the angle for the scratch, it's very visible on the DVD.

I'm intending to hit the siderail when I shoot this shot with low-right. I like stroking this shot.

I do like the way Freddy said to shoot this shot and will try it next I'm at a table.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Bottom line: The difference between both options is very slight. Neither way is considerably better or much more "wrong" than the other. Either way is basically ok. It is just a good idea to understand the differences involved.

Freddy, you should have this carved into a stone tablet and put with your other 9. Bank Pool is so often a choice between shots with a negligible difference is how you hit them.

Dennis

 

[wincardona]

That reminds me of a story about a friend of mine that injected this comment into a general conversation about a book some of us had read. My friend said, "I dont know what the big deal about reading books is. I probably didnt read more that 1 or 2 books in my whole life." He said it sort of proudly. I patted him on the back and said. "That's very nice, but if I were you, I would certainly want to keep that kind of information to myself."

Beard

Do i really need to defend the difference between shooting a shot with 3 tips of outside draw english, with a snap, timed stroke, (and having to allow for the cue ball curve), as opposed to bla'se-ingly rolling the cueball forward with no snap, no timing and no adjustments?

I'm not trying to debate the point of which shot is the easiest to hit for the average player, my point is, if you can develop the feel and stroke needed to hit this shot like Brumback described, it's a better way to play it than rolling at it. But for the players that can't develop the technique to hit this shot the way Brumback plays it, I agree they should roll at it for better results.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

That reminds me of a story about a friend of mine that injected this comment into a general conversation about a book some of us had read. My friend said, "I dont know what the big deal about reading books is. I probably didnt read more that 1 or 2 books in my whole life." He said it sort of proudly. I patted him on the back and said. "That's very nice, but if I were you, I would certainly want to keep that kind of information to myself."

Beard

Do i really need to defend the difference between shooting a shot with 3 tips of outside draw english, with a snap, timed stroke, (and having to allow for the cue ball curve), as opposed to bla'se-ingly rolling the cueball forward with no snap, no timing and no adjustments?

Well, I now have a little experience with shooting the shot the way you described the way you shoot it. No english roll shot. I went to my table and experimented with the shot. :sorry I'm not getting this shot to work for me, maybe i'm not understanding how to shoot it. I position the cue ball about 1" to 1-1/2" from the side rail and shoot to thin the back ball in an attempt to bank it cross corner. The problems i'm experiencing shooting it like this, is that the cue ball is coming straight back under me and narrowly missing the one rail scratch. Not only that, but the speed of the shot is not conducive in controlling the speed of the cue ball. I have to be doing something wrong, please explain what it might be.

Dr. Bill

 

[John Brumback]

Well, I now have a little experience with shooting the shot the way you described the way you shoot it. No english roll shot. I went to my table and experimented with the shot. :sorry I'm not getting this shot to work for me, maybe i'm not understanding how to shoot it. I position the cue ball about 1" to 1-1/2" from the side rail and shoot to thin the back ball in an attempt to bank it cross corner. The problems i'm experiencing shooting it like this, is that the cue ball is coming straight back under me and narrowly missing the one rail scratch. Not only that, but the speed of the shot is not conducive in controlling the speed of the cue ball. I have to be doing something wrong, please explain what it might be.

Dr. Bill

I've never shot it like that,but I was thinking the same thing.I might learn a new shot here.Fred how do you control both balls at the same time? Do you put kill on the rock or what? Like I said I aint never shot it like that.I'll go try it on my table too,but I don't think I can do it.On my worn cloth it's easy to get the cabll to come to the short rail first and kill down on the rail,like that ole cowboy guy said.If I can't control both balls.. I won't shoot the shot like that.That's why I shoot the shot the way I do,by the way.But I'm still learning too I learnt a new shot a few months ago, But I'm going to save this one for awhile. It might not come up in the next 10 years though:lol John B.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Sorry folks, I take it all back. Then angle in the diagram was misleading to me, kind of an optical illusion. For my shot to be correct the cue ball would have to start out from the same place but in front of the side not behind it. The cut angle is too severe to control the cue ball. Looking at the diagram again it still looks ok, but once I took it to a pool table I immediately knew that rolling it from the diagrammed position is a stiff.:sorry

Beard

 

[John Brumback]

Sorry folks, I take it all back. Then angle in the diagram was misleading to me, kind of an optical illusion. For my shot to be correct the cue ball would have to start out from the same place but in front of the side not behind it. The cut angle is too severe to control the cue ball. Looking at the diagram again it still looks ok, but once I took it to a pool table I immediately knew that rolling it from the diagrammed position is a stiff.:sorry

Beard

Well crap,there goes my new shot Nice of you to try that Fred.It is easy to get confused from some of these camera angles and diagrams.Atta boy for standing up and taking that back when you looked at it closer.However I'm still mad about not learning the new shot:lol John B.

 

[wincardona]

Sorry folks, I take it all back. Then angle in the diagram was misleading to me, kind of an optical illusion. For my shot to be correct the cue ball would have to start out from the same place but in front of the side not behind it. The cut angle is too severe to control the cue ball. Looking at the diagram again it still looks ok, but once I took it to a pool table I immediately knew that rolling it from the diagrammed position is a stiff.:sorry

Beard

Actually I was thinking behind the head string was the starting point for the shot, that's why I was totally confused, but even from the spot that Pinegar is shooting it from the low outside spin looks like the nuts. Actually from that spot the hits an easier hit and the results should be over whelming in favor of the low outside spin choice.

Fred, you're suggesting the cue ball be in front of the side, not where it is as we look at the picture, correct? Do you mean in front of the side near the pocket, or 4" closer keeping the same angle? If you're suggesting closer near the pocket I agree with your shot choice, but if you're suggesting a closer shot with the same angle, I don't know if I would change my preference in the way I would shoot it. Imo you need a flatter angle to roll it as opposed to spinning it with a low ball, the angle should dictate more than the distance when shooting these kind of shots, in terms of type of stroke used. Jmo.

Dr. Bill

 

[fred bentivegna]

Actually I was thinking behind the head string was the starting point for the shot, that's why I was totally confused, but even from the spot that Pinegar is shooting it from the low outside spin looks like the nuts. Actually from that spot the hits an easier hit and the results should be over whelming in favor of the low outside spin choice.

Fred, you're suggesting the cue ball be in front of the side, not where it is as we look at the picture, correct? Do you mean in front of the side near the pocket, or 4" closer keeping the same angle? If you're suggesting closer near the pocket I agree with your shot choice, but if you're suggesting a closer shot with the same angle, I don't know if I would change my preference in the way I would shoot it. Imo you need a flatter angle to roll it as opposed to spinning it with a low ball, the angle should dictate more than the distance when shooting these kind of shots, in terms of type of stroke used. Jmo. My sentiments exactly.

Dr. Bill

Moving the cue ball in front of the side pocket, but keeping the same distance from the long rail will result in a different approach angle to the object ball, allowing a fuller hit, and one that could easily control the cue ball.

The way it pans out in the original diagram requires too thin a hit to be able to control both balls.

Moving the cue ball forward a foot or so, lets you hit the object ball at least
another 1/4 ball fuller.

Changing the approach angle will also make it easier to go straight back up the table, easily beating the corner scratch. (Due to the added "forward" motion from the new angle, that would negate the collision induced right hand english that the cue ball would pick up off of the cut on the object ball.)


Beard

If the diagram had been presented with a top view instead of a compressed- forward, the bad angle would have been noticed a lot quicker. Therefore, if we are talking about the original diagram angle, the 2 rail spin is the very best option, but your shot emphasis should be on making sure you use enough spin-draw to reach the long rail to beat the scratch.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Lest' we forget.

Beard

 

[John Brumback]

Lest' we forget.

Beard

Hey that's a good pic of us! I wondered what you did with that.

Oh by the way,do you have anymore of them good long sleeve tee shirts that you always give me? Me loves them good shirts.I'm down to 6 or 7 and their getting a little worn,Fred.That last one you gave me at Red Shoes is not made as good as the tee shirts. Thanks bankin brother.John B.

PS: Still have the good book.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Hey that's a good pic of us! I wondered what you did with that.

Oh by the way,do you have anymore of them good long sleeve tee shirts that you always give me? Me loves them good shirts.I'm down to 6 or 7 and their getting a little worn,Fred.That last one you gave me at Red Shoes is not made as good as the tee shirts. Thanks bankin brother.John B.

PS: Still have the good book.

Between you, Shannon and Truman, you guys must have moved me out of a couple dozen shirts. But if I got 'em, you got 'em, John.

Beard

Never did get a DVD tho.

 

[John Brumback]

Between you, Shannon and Truman, you guys must have moved me out of a couple dozen shirts. But if I got 'em, you got 'em, John.

Beard

Never did get a DVD tho.

:sorry I thought for sure you did Send me your address. John B.

PS: SD said he had so many that he washes his car with one:lol Don't tell him I said that either.

 

[NH Steve]

I also thought it was ball in hand. On second look at the diagram I can see that the cue ball is in front of the head string. Yeah that changes things. I stand by my first comment that at Derby city if the cue ball is behind the line then that's a dangerous scratch in that far right corner

 

[SJDinPHX]

:sorry I thought for sure you did Send me your address. John B.

PS: SD said he had so many that he washes his car with one:lol Don't tell him I said that either.

Beardo, Now that I've become one of the top banker's in the world, could you send me a half dozen or so ? (gratis of course, XL please)

PS..John, tell Shannon they also make good doggie bed liner's..(thats what I used all the Ghst's tee shirts for).

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Hey that's a good pic of us! I wondered what you did with that.

I'll tell you what he did with it. He sent it to me, albeit slightly different.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

The shooter is up 1-0 this game and banks the 7 ball straight-back. Where would you expect a scratch if one occurred?

 

[backplaying]

The shooter is up 1-0 this game and banks the 7 ball straight-back. Where would you expect a scratch if one occurred?

View attachment 6368

View attachment 6369

View attachment 6370

If he draws it, back across the corner. If hit more in the middle, across the side.

 

[wincardona]

I believe like John that this bank should be hit thinly for several reasons. With that type of a hit the two in the corner is your most likely pocket to scratch into.

The reason I would hit this bank on the thin side is that it offers you more of a "built in safety" way of playing it. Plus your chances go a little up in terms of make percentage. Shooting it in this fashion, if missed the 7 ball will more often leave that end of the table, and the cue ball should end up deep down table near the corner pocket.

Dr. Bill