Assassino!

[wincardona]

Bill,

I compared it to one-pocket because I wanted to. The only insulting in this thread was done first by you. I asked Freddy a question and he answered it but apparently not to your satisfaction. You figured I was confused and maybe Freddy's answer would still leave me confused. That's insulting.

Freddy's answer made sense to me, yours was unneeded. My point is that you seem to think it's a large advantage (for the better player) if the game goes 5-4 in an 11 ball rack.

Also, if it is a large advantage then the guy going to 5 wasn't too bright for playing with 11 balls. Those are my points.

Dennis

You asked Freddie a question and he answered it in the way he perceived the question, I on the other hand perceived your question as something different than how Freddie did. If you notice I stated that I believe what Dennis meant That to me implies that I thought you may have been confused why a game that was made with a 6 to 5 differential would be played with an 11 ball rack and not a 10 ball rack. Why would that be insulting?
Maybe that was the way you were thinking, a simple answer like....no Bill that's not what I was confused about... would of explained things a lot better than the way you chose to correct me.

And yes the extra ball is a big advantage for the player giving up the spot, as opposed to a 10 ball rack. There are a lot more different scenarios that the extra ball will benefit the spotter other than a 5 to 4 scenario.

Insulting people is not my way, remember i'm a percentage man.

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

And yes the extra ball is a big advantage for the player giving up the spot, as opposed to a 10 ball rack. There are a lot more different scenarios that the extra ball will benefit the spotter other than a 5 to 4 scenario.


Dr. Bill

Bill,

Please name a scenario where the extra ball helps the spotter except at the endgame.

Also, if you think the spot is "a big advantage for the player giving up the spot" then why did Tony Coleman agree to it & minimize the 6-5 spot? Are you saying he's not too bright? I've always understood that he's been around the block once or twice. I've been wrong before.

Dennis

 

[wincardona]

Bill,

Please name a scenario where the extra ball helps the spotter except at the endgame.

Also, if you think the spot is "a big advantage for the player giving up the spot" then why did Tony Coleman agree to it & minimize the 6-5 spot? Are you saying he's not too bright? I've always understood that he's been around the block once or twice. I've been wrong before.

Dennis

Fine, but you must keep an open mind to what I say, and i'll be glad to debate it with you. I'll answer both your questions.

The extra ball usually helps the better player especially if he's behind or even tied.. And he starts out behind. The reason this is true is because the more balls on the table the bigger the advantage is for the better player, In terms of management, executing safeties, most importantly increasing his chances of running balls, particularly in the following scenarios.

If the player jumps out to a 1-0- or a 2-0- or a 3-0,or 4-0 lead the extra ball will benefit the player that's behind. And in most possible scenarios the better player giving up weight will be behind or tied probably 65% of the entire time at the table. Yes if the better player jumps out to a lead then the extra ball favors the player that's behind. The formula is to chart every possible score that could be possible, and apply it to the reason that the extra ball favors the player that's behind. All ties goes to the better player because of his skills. I believe there are 30 possible scores that could develop, with 20 of those that the better player is either tied or behind, as opposed to only 10 of which the weaker player is behind.

Second question. Yes Tony has been around, and he knows how to win money. But unfortunately for Tony he was a little short and looking to gamble, had he been flush then he may have not played the game. He had less than $5,000 and Chris had over $40,000, well do you really think I think that Tony's a moron? If you do think I think he's a moron, or if you think he's a moron for playing that game, then you and I differ once again. Some of the biggest scores are taken off by playing a game on paper that you have a little the worst of and win. Sometimes you can start out with a little the best of something, and then an hr. later you may have your doubts. Well being the gambler that Tony is he rolled the dice. That's called understanding how to move in the pool room. Maybe next time Tony will wear the trappers hat.

Thanks for listening.

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Fine, but you must keep an open mind to what I say, and i'll be glad to debate it with you. I'll answer both your questions.

The extra ball usually helps the better player especially if he's behind or even tied.. And he starts out behind. The reason this is true is because the more balls on the table the bigger the advantage is for the better player, In terms of management, executing safeties, most importantly increasing his chances of running balls, particularly in the following scenarios.

If the player jumps out to a 1-0- or a 2-0- or a 3-0,or 4-0 lead the extra ball will benefit the player that's behind. And in most possible scenarios the better player giving up weight will be behind or tied probably 65% of the entire time at the table. Yes if the better player jumps out to a lead then the extra ball favors the player that's behind. The formula is to chart every possible score that could be possible, and apply it to the reason that the extra ball favors the player that's behind. All ties goes to the better player because of his skills. I believe there are 30 possible scores that could develop, with 20 of those that the better player is either tied or behind, as opposed to only 10 of which the weaker player is behind.

Second question. Yes Tony has been around, and he knows how to win money. But unfortunately for Tony he was a little short and looking to gamble, had he been flush then he may have not played the game. He had less than $5,000 and Chris had over $40,000, well do you really think I think that Tony's a moron? If you do think I think he's a moron, or if you think he's a moron for playing that game, then you and I differ once again. Some of the biggest scores are taken off by playing a game on paper that you have a little the worst of and win. Sometimes you can start out with a little the best of something, and then an hr. later you may have your doubts. Well being the gambler that Tony is he rolled the dice. That's called understanding how to move in the pool room. Maybe next time Tony will wear the trappers hat.

Thanks for listening.

Dr. Bill

Debate away Bill, I've no problem with that. You failed to answer my second question though; do you think Tony is "not too bright" for agreeing to the 6-5 game with an 11 ball rack? A simple yes or no would suffice.

P.S. I never said that Tony was a "moron".

Dennis

 

[wincardona]

Debate away Bill, I've no problem with that. You failed to answer my second question though; do you think Tony is "not too bright" for agreeing to the 6-5 game with an 11 ball rack? A simple yes or no would suffice.

P.S. I never said that Tony was a "moron".

Dennis

Are you kidding me, I did answer your second question, no I don't think Tony is "not too bright" I think Tony took a shot with a little the worst of the game, getting odds on his money. Tony knew he was in tough before the game started, but obviously thought that the odds he was getting was worth the gamble. That happens to be a winning strategy for a lot of people, Tony probably being one of them. Plus, it wasn't a game that they played before, so there was really no way of predicting a certain result. That always is another reason to play a "maybe tough game"

Why don't you ask Freddie how many big scores Tony has taken off, from players that thought they had the best of it. Tony's a winning player, always on the road, and usually has big money.
By the way you didn't say that Tony was a moron, but you made it seem that only a moron would play that game, based on my explanation of the value the extra ball carries for the better player. But what you failed to realize is that everyone doesn't see things the same way. Which is evidenced around here on a daily basis.
Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Are you kidding me, I did answer your second question, no I don't think Tony is "not too bright" I think Tony took a shot with a little the worst of the game, getting odds on his money. Tony knew he was in tough before the game started, but obviously thought that the odds he was getting was worth the gamble. That happens to be a winning strategy for a lot of people, Tony probably being one of them. Plus, it wasn't a game that they played before, so there was really no way of predicting a certain result. That always is another reason to play a "maybe tough game"

Why don't you ask Freddie how many big scores Tony has taken off, from players that thought they had the best of it. Tony's a winning player, always on the road, and usually has big money.

Dr. Bill

Now you've answered my second question. Thank you.

Dennis

 

[androd]

Maybe next time Tony will wear the trappers hat.

Thanks for listening.

Dr. Bill

Those hats are supposed to be fur, correct.
I've found that, around the pool room "all trappers don't wear fur caps" :frus
Rod.

 

[wincardona]

Those hats are supposed to be fur, correct.
I've found that, around the pool room "all trappers don't wear fur caps"
Rod.

Good morning, I knew it went something like that. I could of used the bug and the windshield clich'e, another one you're familiar with. We both have been both, the bug or the windshield

Dr. Bill

 

[androd]

Good morning, I knew it went something like that. I could of used the bug and the windshield clich'e, another one you're familiar with. We both have been both, the bug or the windshield

Dr. Bill

That we have.
Nothing wrong with getting odds on the money. I was usually laying them.

A few of us were in a restaurant in Vegas arguing about the price of something. Someone said I'll lay you 7 to 5, another said I'll lay you 3 to 2, I said I'll lay you 8 to 5.
The waitress said you can lay me 12 to 1, that's my lunch hour.
Rod.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

The formula is to chart every possible score that could be possible, and apply it to the reason that the extra ball favors the player that's behind. All ties goes to the better player because of his skills. I believe there are 30 possible scores that could develop, with 20 of those that the better player is either tied or behind, as opposed to only 10 of which the weaker player is behind.



Dr. Bill

Bill,

The better player could be tied at:

0-0
1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4

The better player could be behind at:

0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-3
2-4
3-4

That is a total of 15 scores where the better player is tied or behind.

The player getting weight can be behind at:

1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
5-0
2-1
3-1
4-1
5-1
3-2
4-2
5-2
4-3
5-3
5-4

That's 15 scores for the weaker player to be behind.

I'm just trying to figure out your thinking here, to me the 11 ball rack in a 6-5 game just doesn't help either player all that much.

Just for the hell of it take your premise to a logical extreme: Say they were playing with a 21 ball rack. Would that change your thinking at all? Many banking lanes would be tied up thus negating the better player's abilities, to a degree ayway. Maybe there's a point where the extra balls would help the better player but I don't know.

Either way, I still think at the hill-hill point with two balls on the table it's a negligible advantage for the better player. I think it's so difficult to protect against leaving a bank with 6 pockets to shoot at that the game is even or almost even at that point.

It's definitely interesting to consider, either way.

P.S. Please double-check my numbers, I'm getting a headache looking at them.

Dennis

 

[lll]

That we have.


A few of us were in a restaurant in Vegas arguing about the price of something. Someone said I'll lay you 7 to 5, another said I'll lay you 3 to 2, I said I'll lay you 8 to 5.
The waitress said you can lay me 12 to 1, that's my lunch hour.
Rod.

good one rod
hadnt heard that one

 

[androd]

Bill,

The better player could be tied at:

0-0 behind
1-1 behind
2-2 behind
3-3 behind
4-4 behind
not that it matters
The better player could be behind at:

0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-3
2-4
3-4

That is a total of 15 scores where the better player is tied or behind.

The player getting weight can be behind at:

1-0 even
2-0
3-0
4-0
5-0
2-1 even
3-1
4-1
5-1
3-2 even
4-2
5-2
4-3 even
5-3
5-4 even

That's 15 scores for the weaker player to be behind.

I'm just trying to figure out your thinking here, to me the 11 ball rack in a 6-5 game just doesn't help either player all that much.

Just for the hell of it take your premise to a logical extreme: Say they were playing with a 21 ball rack. Would that change your thinking at all? Many banking lanes would be tied up thus negating the better player's abilities, to a degree ayway. Maybe there's a point where the extra balls would help the better player but I don't know.

Either way, I still think at the hill-hill point with two balls on the table it's a negligible advantage for the better player. I think it's so difficult to protect against leaving a bank with 6 pockets to shoot at that the game is even or almost even at that point.

It's definitely interesting to consider, either way.

P.S. Please double-check my numbers, I'm getting a headache looking at them.

Dennis

Not that any of this matters or is written in stone, but the player giving the spot starts one ball behind.
Rod.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Not that any of this matters or is written in stone, but the player giving the spot starts one ball behind.
Rod.

Damn Rod, I came back home with my headache relieved only to see this. If my computer was working properly I would put an (eek) here, a (confused) here, a (frustrated) here and a big-ass smiley face here.

Do you figure the player giving the spot is down one ball no matter his speed? Is it just a simple math problem or is it more involved? I know you & Bill are good handicappers and odds-setters and I'm not but I just don't see it the same way. Who didn't know that right?

Dennis

 

[androd]

Damn Rod, I came back home with my headache relieved only to see this. If my computer was working properly I would put an (eek) here, a (confused) here, a (frustrated) here and a big-ass smiley face here.

Do you figure the player giving the spot is down one ball no matter his speed? Is it just a simple math problem or is it more involved? I know you & Bill are good handicappers and odds-setters and I'm not but I just don't see it the same way. Who didn't know that right?

Dennis

Yeah when the game starts, he's down one ball. Doesn't matter who's the best player. I agree, the game favors the best player in more situations.
Rod.
P.S. I could be wrong, I'm a outpatient, more like impatient. :lol

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Yeah when the game starts, he's down one ball. Doesn't matter who's the best player. I agree, the game favors the best player in more situations.
Rod.
P.S. I could be wrong, I'm a outpatient, more like impatient. :lol

Rod,

Please bear with me while I ask stupid questions. I can understand the mathematical equation being stated as the player giving up the spot is down a ball when the score is 0-0 (I'm assuming before the balls are broken), my question then is this: If the player giving up the spot makes the first ball in a game shouldn't he then win every game where that is true? After he makes the first ball they are playing 5-5 so he should then win since he's the better player, but we all know that doesn't happen.

Cowboy "never got/gave weight from/to anyone playing banks" Dennis

 

[androd]

Rod,

Please bear with me while I ask stupid questions. I can understand the mathematical equation being stated as the player giving up the spot is down a ball when the score is 0-0 (I'm assuming before the balls are broken), my question then is this: If the player giving up the spot makes the first ball in a game shouldn't he then win every game where that is true? After he makes the first ball they are playing 5-5 so he should then win since he's the better player, but we all know that doesn't happen.

Cowboy "never got/gave weight from/to anyone playing banks" Dennis

Well after he makes the 1st ball, the game would be consider even.
Rod.
P.S. Of course it doesn't happen. but he would seem to be a very, very slight favorite

 

[wincardona]

Bill,

The better player could be tied at:

0-0
1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4

The better player could be behind at:

0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-3
2-4
3-4

That is a total of 15 scores where the better player is tied or behind.

The player getting weight can be behind at:

1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
5-0
2-1
3-1
4-1
5-1
3-2
4-2
5-2
4-3
5-3
5-4

That's 15 scores for the weaker player to be behind.

I'm just trying to figure out your thinking here, to me the 11 ball rack in a 6-5 game just doesn't help either player all that much. I agree, but it helps the better player more, even though it's negligible.
Just for the hell of it take your premise to a logical extreme: Say they were playing with a 21 ball rack. Would that change your thinking at all? Many banking lanes would be tied up thus negating the better player's abilities, to a degree ayway. Maybe there's a point where the extra balls would help the better player but I don't know. You could be right if the weaker player specializes in a congested table, but we must assume that the better player is better in all areas. Seems unfair but it's not, unless the weaker player plays better under certain conditions.(congested table) And if that was true then he wouldn't be getting the spot, unless the other guy is a moron.:lol

Either way, I still think at the hill-hill point with two balls on the table it's a negligible advantage for the better player. I think it's so difficult to protect against leaving a bank with 6 pockets to shoot at that the game is even or almost even at that point. The better player will always be a favorite to make the next ball, and with the extra ball he will still be the favorite simply because he's the better player. (more options) (better judgement)

It's definitely interesting to consider, either way. The more the better player is over the other player the more it helps.

P.S. Please double-check my numbers, I'm getting a headache looking at them.

Dennis

I'll try to chart the possible scores where the better player is tied or behind, then when the weaker player is behind.

Gentile-Tony
0-0
0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-0--tied
1-1
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-1--tied
2-2
2-3
2-4
3-2--tied
3-3
3-4
4-3--tied
4-4
5-4--tied
-----------------
20 scores where Gentile is tied or behind

Gentile--Tony
2-0
3-0
3-1
4-0
4-1
4-2
5-0
5-1
5-2
5-3
-----------------
10 scores where Tony is behind


The skill difference between two players playing 6 to 5 is small, but it's still an advantage even though it's very small.It doesn't have to show in 1 game or even 5 games, but it will show if the players play to their speed. (eventually)

Dr. Bill

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis
Bill,

The better player could be tied at:

0-0
1-1
2-2
3-3
4-4

The better player could be behind at:

0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-3
2-4
3-4

That is a total of 15 scores where the better player is tied or behind.

The player getting weight can be behind at:

1-0
2-0
3-0
4-0
5-0
2-1
3-1
4-1
5-1
3-2
4-2
5-2
4-3
5-3
5-4

That's 15 scores for the weaker player to be behind.

I'm just trying to figure out your thinking here, to me the 11 ball rack in a 6-5 game just doesn't help either player all that much. I agree, but it helps the better player more, even though it's negligible.
Just for the hell of it take your premise to a logical extreme: Say they were playing with a 21 ball rack. Would that change your thinking at all? Many banking lanes would be tied up thus negating the better player's abilities, to a degree ayway. Maybe there's a point where the extra balls would help the better player but I don't know. You could be right if the weaker player specializes in a congested table, but we must assume that the better player is better in all areas. Seems unfair but it's not, unless the weaker player plays better under certain conditions.(congested table) And if that was true then he wouldn't be getting the spot, unless the other guy is a moron.

Either way, I still think at the hill-hill point with two balls on the table it's a negligible advantage for the better player. I think it's so difficult to protect against leaving a bank with 6 pockets to shoot at that the game is even or almost even at that point. The better player will always be a favorite to make the next ball, and with the extra ball he will still be the favorite simply because he's the better player. (more options) (better judgement)

It's definitely interesting to consider, either way. The more the better player is over the other player the more it helps.

P.S. Please double-check my numbers, I'm getting a headache looking at them.

Dennis

I'll try to chart the possible scores where the better player is tied or behind, then when the weaker player is behind.

Gentile-Tony
0-0
0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-0--tied
1-1
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-1--tied
2-2
2-3
2-4
3-2--tied
3-3
3-4
4-3--tied
4-4
5-4--tied
-----------------
20 scores where Gentile is tied or behind

Gentile--Tony
2-0
3-0
3-1
4-0
4-1
4-2
5-0
5-1
5-2
5-3
-----------------
10 scores where Tony is behind


The skill difference between two players playing 6 to 5 is small, but it's still an advantage even though it's very small.It doesn't have to show in 1 game or even 5 games, but it will show if the players play to their speed. (eventually)

Dr. Bill

All I can say about the last 3 pages of this thread is...You guys have waay too much time on your hands.....:heh

- Ghost

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I'll try to chart the possible scores where the better player is tied or behind, then when the weaker player is behind.

Gentile-Tony
0-0
0-1
0-2
0-3
0-4
1-0--tied
1-1
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-1--tied
2-2
2-3
2-4
3-2--tied
3-3
3-4
4-3--tied
4-4
5-4--tied
-----------------
20 scores where Gentile is tied or behind

Gentile--Tony
2-0
3-0
3-1
4-0
4-1
4-2
5-0
5-1
5-2
5-3
-----------------
10 scores where Tony is behind


The skill difference between two players playing 6 to 5 is small, but it's still an advantage even though it's very small.It doesn't have to show in 1 game or even 5 games, but it will show if the players play to their speed. (eventually)

Dr. Bill

Thanks for taking the time Bill. I guess we just look at it differently, that's all. I never looked at it the way you & Rod do but it makes sense.

I tend to look at it like this: suppose you and I were going to run a 100 yd. dash and I was going to spot you 10 yds. I would have to run 110 yds. to your 100 yds. but we would both be starting at the same point, I wouldn't be behind when the race started. I would have to make up the 10 yds. during the race in order to win or tie.

That's how I look at the 6-5 bank game although you & Rod are correct about how to assign a value to the scores numerically. I guess that's why I work (smile).

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

All I can say about the last 3 pages of this thread is...You guys have waay too much time on your hands.....:heh

- Ghost

Idle hands are the devil's workshop Ghosty.

RBL