A Foul Is A Foul??? Really???

[Cowboy Dennis]

Some people like Doc and Bill Stroud have said that a foul is a foul but they neglect to mention that if nobody calls it a foul then it's not a foul. Here's an interesting sequence that I had never noticed before in the Ervolino/Sigel match from the 1991 L.O.P.. I was looking for something else when I saw this. Johnny was cutting the 2 ball and playing the cueball three rails for shapes. When he shot he hit the 5 ball with the shaft of his stick and moved it several inches to his right.



As fate would have it, he missed the 2 ball and the cueball came around three rails and hit the 8 and then the 5 balls. In other words, he hit the ball he moved with his shaft (5 ball) with the cueball on the shot. I don't know which rules they played by at this tourney but it's a foul everywhere I've ever played.

But guess what, nobody noticed it. Not Sigel, not Ervolino judging by his reaction to missing the 2 which is what he was looking at, not Cornbread, Freddy, Buddy Hall or Grady said a word in the booth (about it being a foul). They were probably watching the 2 ball and the cueball, not the 5 ball. Nobody called a foul on this shot. Was there still a foul? A referree may have seen it but there are legitimate reasons at times for six people not to see a foul occur. Mostly because they weren't looking for it, I would think. If they were playing by rules that I'm not aware of I sure hope someone would tell me.

 

[John Brumback]

Some people like Doc and Bill Stroud have said that a foul is a foul but they neglect to mention that if nobody calls it a foul then it's not a foul. Here's an interesting sequence that I had never noticed before in the Ervolino/Sigel match from the 1991 L.O.P.. I was looking for something else when I saw this. Johnny was cutting the 2 ball and playing the cueball three rails for shapes. When he shot he hit the 5 ball with the shaft of his stick and moved it several inches to his right.

View attachment 2682

As fate would have it, he missed the 2 ball and the cueball came around three rails and hit the 8 and then the 5 balls. In other words, he hit the ball he moved with his shaft (5 ball) with the cueball on the shot. I don't know which rules they played by at this tourney but it's a foul everywhere I've ever played.

But guess what, nobody noticed it. Not Sigel, not Ervolino judging by his reaction to missing the 2 which is what he was looking at, not Cornbread, Freddy, Buddy Hall or Grady said a word in the booth (about it being a foul). They were probably watching the 2 ball and the cueball, not the 5 ball. Nobody called a foul on this shot. Was there still a foul? A referree may have seen it but there are legitimate reasons at times for six people not to see a foul occur. Mostly because they weren't looking for it, I would think. If they were playing by rules that I'm not aware of I sure would hope someone would tell me.

View attachment 2683

Yep, that's how Ive been playing that rule my whole life,well at least since texas express. However long that's been. They must have not been using that rule or how eles could all those people not see something as simple as that? I mean That's the first thing you stand up to watch for when a guy moves a ball with his stick,to see where the ole cue ball Is heading.It better not touch or go through the path. Unless there's a reff there and he should be looking where that cue ball Is going as soon as he moves the 5 with his cue.It doesn't have to even hit It, just go through the path of moved ball.That's a foul. That's a good one to bring up cowboy. John B.

 

[Cary]

It's a foul

It's a foul

by definition whether it's called or not. From the WPA rules (referenced in the OnePocket.org rules):

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play#top


6.3 No Rail after Contact
If no ball is pocketed on a shot, the cue ball must contact an object ball, and after that contact at least one ball (cue ball or any object ball) must be driven to a rail, or the shot is a foul. (See 8.4 Driven to a Rail.)

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

 

[lll]

i think its what some would call........
"you got away with one" foul....

 

[lll]

i find it hard to beleive the shooter didnt realize he hit the 5.
imo he kept it to himself and didnt voluteer the "mea culpa"

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

i think its what some would call........
"you got away with one" foul....

Theonly foul I see is if you were playing a BLIND PERSON.

 

[RedCard]

Table Foul

Table Foul

It never hurts to occasionally jump up and yell 'table foul', whether or not anything untoward took place. You can't do it but once or so a session and it is recommended that you have your apes with you, possibly even having one of them bark out the declaration.

 

[CaliRed]

i find it hard to beleive the shooter didnt realize he hit the 5.
imo he kept it to himself and didnt voluteer the "mea culpa"

Larry, I think it's very possible he might not have noticed it. I find myself doing that too... when the ball that moves is behind where my attention is focused on. In this case his attention is all focused on his contact point on the cueball and the 2 ball and the pocket. All those things are in front of the 5 ball.

It's certainly a foul, but for only the time between when the 5 ball moved and the time that Mike's cuetip hit the object ball, then it became a foul you can only talk about.

For the record... Calling a foul on myself depends on many factors.

1. I'm a believer that your opponent should be paying attention and it's his responsibility to call the foul.

2. Different types of fouls, have a bearing on how I would react. If a guy is watching me shoot and I kick a ball and nothing hits a rail or I hit a ball directly and nothing hits a rail, if he doesn't say anything, I probably won't either. If he asks me, I will give a truthful answer. If he stands there giving me the stink eye, I'll play dumb. If he says, "well, aren't you going to spot up a ball", then I'll say " Oh, was that a foul, I wasn't looking in that area of the table" I will then tell the person, "Look, if I foul, you need to tell me I fouled"

What if I belive that he couldn't see the foul being committed, because of his vantage point? If there's a good chance that I could foul on the shot, and he makes no attempt to put himself in the position to see if I will foul, then I wouldn't offer to say I fouled. But say he was going to try and get to a point to see, but he stopped because he didn't want to shark me by moving into my line of sight. I would voluntarily tell him I fouled.

There are people that I trust them and they trust me... when I play those people, I call all fouls on myself, no matter what. Now if I catch them one time, not doing likewise, then we got to build our whole relationship up again

There's people I play, that I don't trust them, so therefore it's a dog eat dog game there. If I play a person that will argue about something not being a foul, when we both know full well it is, those people get nothing from me. I give back the same thing I get from them.


So basically, if I have a mutual trust with someone, then I call everything, as long as they do too. If I don't have any trust with someone, they get no help from me, and I might even argue that a foul was not a foul.

If I don't know the person and have no history, then I will always be truthful when asked. At first opportunity, I will let it be known that it's their responsibility to call a foul on me, because I have a medical problem that seems to interfere with me seeing my own fouls. If the person can't see me make a foul, but I know he's paying attention, then I will call it on myself. If I know the guy is trying to pay attention to what's going on, then I will call fouls.

If the guy has a short attention span, or doesn't seem into it, or is easily distracted, or yaps on his phone, or talks to other tables, then I call no fouls on myself, but will answer truthfully if asked, or will offer no argument if told I fouled.

To me.. it's not cut and dried.

I am a very honest person in life, but if someone jacks with me, I'll jack them right back and have no problem sleeping.

Geez....... what the hell was the question of why I was even posting in this thread?

Cali "Ramblin'" Red

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I am a very honest person in life, but if someone jacks with me, I'll jack them right back and have no problem sleeping.


Cali "Ramblin'" Red

What a lowlife, unscrupulous, dishonest weasel you turned out to be .

Cowboy "I'm better than you" Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

i find it hard to beleive the shooter didnt realize he hit the 5.
imo he kept it to himself and didnt voluteer the "mea culpa"

Larry,

When I first saw this today I thought Ervolino did not know he fouled, I have now watched that scene repeatedly and I now believe he did know. I can't prove it by any means but I'll tell you why I think that now and show a few pics. In this first pic you can see where on his shaft the five ball hit.



In these next pics you can see how far the 5 ball moved.





I now believe the 5 ball moved much farther than I had previously thought. He had to feel it hit his shaft to move it that far.



In this pic he is pointing at the missed 2 ball (but was looking at the 5 and the cueball just previous) and talking to Sigel, I believe to distract him from looking at the 5 ball and realizing the foul. I've pulled that move before to distract an opponent from something I didn't want him to realize.

 

[bstroud]

I think anyone that has ever played Ervolino like I have would know that he would never admit to a foul in this situation. He was old school Eastern and had a completely different set of ethics than I grew up with.

In the same situation I would just have admitted that I had committed a foul.
There would be no discussion.

Bill Stroud

 

[lll]

fwiw
my 2 cents on all of this "morality" debate
in gambling i think its survival of the fittest
you dont offer up a foul if your opponent slept it

in a tournament which should be "gentlemens" rules you do

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I think anyone that has ever played Ervolino like I have would know that he would never admit to a foul in this situation. He was old school Eastern and had a completely different set of ethics than I grew up with.

In the same situation I would just have admitted that I had committed a foul.
There would be no discussion.

Bill Stroud[/QUOT

I have one big problem with that.

You might just do what yopu say. But people Like Everlino and Dennies you would never get the chance too call a foul on yourself.

They whould be watching and payung attention and they would call it. You done have too Be so nieve.

If you are shooting ant shot were thier is a chance off you fouling. They will be thier to watch and see what you do.

And if you foul they will call it.

They do what you are supose too do.

Like the reff says in the rig protect yourself at all times.

And If you want too be a nice guy. And call a foul on your self.

And makes you feel good go ahead.

I would like too see you doing that on a game ball shot were you are betting 10 thousand dollars off your own money.

And you call a foulf on yourself. By axcedently touching the cue ball. And you spot upa ball that youre opponent cant miss.

Too win your ten thousand dollars I would like too see what you do in that spot. Talk is cheap. It doesnt cost you anything.

I dont think you would call a foul on yourself. If you could get away with it.

But we will never no the real answer.

And why would you tell the player you fouled. If thier is no such rule.

And whoes responsability is it too call the foul. Answer theese two qouistions

And then I will see If everything adds up to youre answer. And these are no trick qouistions.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I think anyone that has ever played Ervolino like I have would know that he would never admit to a foul in this situation. He was old school Eastern and had a completely different set of ethics than I grew up with.

In the same situation I would just have admitted that I had committed a foul.
There would be no discussion.

Bill Stroud[/QUOT

I have one big problem with that.

You might just do what yopu say. But people Like Everlino and Dennies you would never get the chance too call a foul on yourself.

They whould be watching and payung attention and they would call it. You done have too Be so nieve.

If you are shooting ant shot were thier is a chance off you fouling. They will be thier to watch and see what you do.

And if you foul they will call it.

They do what you are supose too do.

Like the reff says in the rig protect yourself at all times.

And If you want too be a nice guy. And call a foul on your self.

And makes you feel good go ahead.

I would like too see you doing that on a game ball shot were you are betting 10 thousand dollars off your own money.

And you call a foulf on yourself. By axcedently touching the cue ball. And you spot upa ball that youre opponent cant miss.

Too win your ten thousand dollars I would like too see what you do in that spot. Talk is cheap. It doesnt cost you anything.

I dont think you would call a foul on yourself. If you could get away with it.

But we will never no the real answer.

And why would you tell the player you fouled. If thier is no such rule.

And whoes responsability is it too call the foul. Answer theese two qouistions

And then I will see If everything adds up to youre answer. And these are no trick qouistions.

And one more thing If I back someone. And they dont watch the game. And the player fouls.

And me player doesnt call it I let him no what a f idiot he is.

I would never blame the other player for not calling the foul on himself.

I would blame the idiot im backing. And I have too be a bigger idiot then the guy im backing.

What am I doing backing a fool like that. And I might never back him again.

For being that stupit not too watch the game. And I have never backet someone were that happenend.

It doesnt happen much. Or it might even be too close too call. Thats why you need a reff.

And some times it can be so close it could go either way. And if a player is that stupit and aerresponsable.

He desirves too loose. And people think thier nice guys when they do that.

Its all Bs. How many times in your life have you done this? were the player didnt call it.

How do you learn from your mistake. If you reward the mistake.

 

[bstroud]

I try to win more than most. I HATE to lose.

I just grew up admitting when I foul the cue ball and back away immediately.
It just seems to be part of my DNA.

It doesn't make me a nice guy or better than anyone else.

Bill Stroud

 

[RedCard]

Pool isn't jacks or hopscotch. If a player is inattentive or goes to the restroom, and the area is devoid of hostile sweaters, he deserves to have balls manually moved on him. It is one of the pleasures of the game. He can often be jarred with a piss Mickey to encourage his absences. This is morally no different than not admitting a foul and much more fun.

As somebody else mentioned, tournament play is different. Cameras being present, a pool version of the Marquess of Queensberry rules apply.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Pool isn't jacks or hopscotch. If a player is inattentive or goes to the restroom, and the area is devoid of hostile sweaters, he deserves to have balls manually moved on him. It is one of the pleasures of the game. He can often be jarred with a piss Mickey to encourage his absences. This is morally no different than not admitting a foul and much more fun.

As somebody else mentioned, tournament play is different. Cameras being present, a pool version of the Marquess of Queensberry rules apply.

You should Buy Freddys Book and Eddie Robines book. Were the Rats were helping me too position the balls for me.

When Freddy went too the bath room. And he said I moved the balls. And all the sweathers said no he didnt.

And thats were Freddys line came from. I sold my soul too the Devile.

But Im on the other side off that one. But things just happen that are imposable too belive. But they do happen.

 

[RedCard]

You should Buy Freddys Book and Eddie Robines book. Were the Rats were helping me too position the balls for me.

When Freddy went too the bath room. And he said I moved the balls. And all the sweathers said no he didnt.

And thats were Freddys line came from. I sold my soul too the Devile.

But Im on the other side off that one. But things just happen that are imposable too belive. But they do happen.

I don't doubt that story for a minute. I'll bet you could have rapped the butt of your cue on the floor in the proper code and those well-trained rodents would have lined up like little soldiers, ready for their next assignment.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Pool isn't jacks or hopscotch. If a player is inattentive or goes to the restroom, and the area is devoid of hostile sweaters, he deserves to have balls manually moved on him. It is one of the pleasures of the game. He can often be jarred with a piss Mickey to encourage his absences. This is morally no different than not admitting a foul and much more fun.

As somebody else mentioned, tournament play is different. Cameras being present, a pool version of the Marquess of Queensberry rules apply.

Actually RedCard, the only people who've brought up cheating and thievery are the holyrollers & better-than-thous.

RBL

 

[Guest]

I think anyone that has ever played Ervolino like I have would know that he would never admit to a foul in this situation. He was old school Eastern and had a completely different set of ethics than I grew up with.

In the same situation I would just have admitted that I had committed a foul.
There would be no discussion.

Bill Stroud[/QUOT

I have one big problem with that.

You might just do what yopu say. But people Like Everlino and Dennies you would never get the chance too call a foul on yourself.

They whould be watching and payung attention and they would call it. You done have too Be so nieve.

If you are shooting ant shot were thier is a chance off you fouling. They will be thier to watch and see what you do.

And if you foul they will call it.

They do what you are supose too do.

Like the reff says in the rig protect yourself at all times.

And If you want too be a nice guy. And call a foul on your self.

And makes you feel good go ahead.

I would like too see you doing that on a game ball shot were you are betting 10 thousand dollars off your own money.

And you call a foulf on yourself. By axcedently touching the cue ball. And you spot upa ball that youre opponent cant miss.

Too win your ten thousand dollars I would like too see what you do in that spot. Talk is cheap. It doesnt cost you anything.

I dont think you would call a foul on yourself. If you could get away with it.

But we will never no the real answer.

And why would you tell the player you fouled. If thier is no such rule.

And whoes responsability is it too call the foul. Answer theese two qouistions

And then I will see If everything adds up to youre answer. And these are no trick qouistions.